Case 3.3.6 Sit D

[BayStateRef]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If the quarter has ended, the coach doesn't need to be beckoned to enter the court, does he?

The time-out area does not include the entire court. There are a couple of points in this case play.

• The intermission between quarters does not start until the injured player is removed from the court.
• Even though the coach was beckoned, the injured player may return if ready by the warning horn.
• If the injured player cannot return, the substitute must report by the warning horn.

The last point is a problem...because there is no sanction if the sub does not report in time. If the injured player cannot return, it does not matter when the substitute reports. He's coming into the game. The only penalty available when a substitute does not report in time is to forbid the sub from entering the game. There is no way we can require an injured player to return before the coach says he's ready.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BayStateRef

The last point is a problem...because there is no sanction if the sub does not report in time. If the injured player cannot return, it does not matter when the substitute reports. He's coming into the game. The only penalty available when a substitute does not report in time is to forbid the sub from entering the game. There is no way we can require an injured player to return before the coach says he's ready.

So if the sub (for the injured player) came in "late", would you let the other team counter with a sub? I would, even though it's not an "allowable time to substitute" (or whatever the rule book wording is).

[BayStateRef]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

So if the sub (for the injured player) came in "late", would you let the other team counter with a sub? I would, even though it's not an "allowable time to substitute" (or whatever the rule book wording is).

I've thought about this...and decided the rule does not allow this.

If a sub reports at the last second (but before the warning horn), there is no provision for the other team to counter. That is how I am going to handle this.

So I am going to (only) bring in the sub for the injured player...until the NFHS says otherwise.

[Adam]

I'd bring them all in based on the precedent of injured and dq'd players during FTs.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BayStateRef

I've thought about this...and decided the rule does not allow this.

If a sub reports at the last second (but before the warning horn), there is no provision for the other team to counter. That is how I am going to handle this.

So I am going to (only) bring in the sub for the injured player...until the NFHS says otherwise.

I disagree. Before the warning horn both teams have equal opportunity to send subs to the table so it's not the same.

If you were to deny the opposing team to bring in a sub to counter in this situation are you also going deny the opposing team to bring in a 'counter' sub if you had to stop live play due to an injured player?

[BayStateRef]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I disagree. Before the warning horn both teams have equal opportunity to send subs to the table so it's not the same.

If you were to deny the opposing team to bring in a sub to counter in this situation are you also going deny the opposing team to bring in a 'counter' sub if you had to stop live play due to an injured player?

The rule is different. During a dead ball (which is what you have once you stop play for the injured player) subs can report until the ball is about to become live.

The case play is between quarters...not the last play of the game. I understand your point; there simply is no rule that allows it. There has been a constant refrain at both the NFHS and NCAA to enforce the rules as written and not for individuals to substitute their judgment for the rules. This case book play should have foreseen this problem and answered it.

[Adam]

Sitch:
A1 is injured, coach is beckoned, and decides to use a timeout to keep A1.
After the TO, A1 is not ready, so A6 reports (after the horn) to replace the injured A1.
B coach wants to counter the sudden sub with B6.

It seems to me the ability to offer an uncounterable sub is an advantage not intended by the rules here, so A coach should not be allowed to gain it this way.

[BayStateRef]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

It seems to me the ability to offer an uncounterable sub is an advantage not intended by the rules here, so A coach should not be allowed to gain it this way.

There is nothing in the rules that speaks to "countering" subs. If a coach sends a player to the table 16 seconds before a time out ends, that sub comes in but the other team cannot counter because there is no way that sub is going to get there before the warning horn.

You are trying to instill your sense of equity and fairness where the rules don't address it. That is what the rules makers at the high school and college level have been trying to stop for the last few years.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BayStateRef

The rule is different. During a dead ball (which is what you have once you stop play for the injured player) subs can report until the ball is about to become live.

The case play is between quarters...not the last play of the game. I understand your point; there simply is no rule that allows it. There has been a constant refrain at both the NFHS and NCAA to enforce the rules as written and not for individuals to substitute their judgment for the rules. This case book play should have foreseen this problem and answered it.

If you allow 1 sub in the game shouldn't all properly reported subs be allowed in also?

IOW, once the warning horn sounds no subs should be coming in. It is now discovered that B33 is injured to the point he can't return. Coach B sends his sub to the table. Coach A sees this and sends A35 to the table. What rules basis would we have not allow A35 to enter also?

[BayStateRef]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

What rules basis would we have not allow A35 to enter also?

Rule 3-3-1a.
Casebook 3.3.1 Situation A.

See also Casebook 3.3.1 Situation D, (b) which is nearly identical to the question you ask.