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Old Sun Oct 23, 2011, 01:22pm
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Timeout

Here's some, (brace yourselves) I didn't know.

The league/s I play in states, "played under HS rules", I did know that...

With that said, no I don't know them thar rules verbatim and no we don't get a rule book in our packets, just the local league supplements concerning, rosters, Ot lenght, foul and time out limits etc.

But, just ordered some, rule book, case book and the simple illustrated book as well. Yes, if you get me curious enough I'll go off and learn.. As I am the Bill Russell/Len Wilkens type "player coach" for my team/s. And just waiting for my grand studs to wanna learn the game..
My books won't be here before next game, can you fill me in.

1. The other night, we are down 2, with less than 30 sec. on the clock, bad guys with the ball in their front court.
One of our guys gets a hand on the ball and knocks it free, towards the end line.
Another of our guys hustles and tracks it down, as he's going out of bounds with possesion and airborn, he requests TIME OUT.

No whistle, until he lands out of bounds. Bad guys ball!

Ref informs me that "a player can not call time as he's heading out of bounds."
I'd never heard that before, and have never seen it ruled that way.
I've played "organized hoops" since 1969, youth, school and very good rec ball.
I know I've done it scores of times throughout my playing days/ze and of course witnessed it on scores more..

2. Ensuing inbounds play, we foul, they are in the 1-1. Ref tossed ball to shooter who takes a couple dribbles, as he is setting to shoot a fellow offensive player sprints down and takes a spot on the lane? Is this not a violation? End line ref say's "the guy was already there or I wouldn't have given the shooter the ball." The ref near 1/2 court who I'm standing next and asking in his ear, "isn't that a violation?" say's,
"I didn't see him enter." I say that's why I'm standing here pointing and talking in yer ear." He say's "sorry I didn't see it." I didn't bother with the
3rd guy it seemed pretty fruitless by then.

3. Another unrelated, but again seems different too me?
"Travel calls" seem to be way up, is there POE out there this year?
I've heard it now about "4-5" times, "he picked up the pivot foot."

In my simple mind, a player can indeed pick up the pivot foot, just can't put it back down. Has something changed?
By the way, I am a master at the jump stop/step through or reverse pivot, so I know, I pick up my pivot foot, this continues to go uncalled as has been normal the past few decades.

I don't know, so here I am, does this ole dog need to learn new tricks?
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Old Sun Oct 23, 2011, 01:36pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soundedlikeastrike View Post
As he's going out of bounds with possession and airborne, he requests time out.
Under NFHS (high school) rules the official should have granted the player a timeout. Not sure about NCAA, or NBA, rule sets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by soundedlikeastrike View Post
They are in the 1-1. Ref tossed ball to shooter who takes a couple dribbles, as he is setting to shoot a fellow offensive player sprints down and takes a spot on the lane?
Under NFHS rules, this is an immediate violation on the shooting team and the nonshooting team should have gotten the ball for a back court endline throwin. But if the officials didn't see it, then they missed it, and they can't call what they don't see.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Oct 23, 2011 at 01:44pm.
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Old Sun Oct 23, 2011, 01:45pm
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[QUOTE=BillyMac;795447]Under NFHS (high school) rules the official should have granted the player a timeout. Not sure about NCAA, or NBA, rule sets.


BillyMac,
Maybe I am wrong, but I seem to remember the rule about being able to call a timeout while airborne has changed recently.. Do you have a current rules/casebook reference?
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Old Sun Oct 23, 2011, 01:57pm
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[QUOTE=swkansasref33;795448]
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Under NFHS (high school) rules the official should have granted the player a timeout. Not sure about NCAA, or NBA, rule sets.


BillyMac,
Maybe I am wrong, but I seem to remember the rule about being able to call a timeout while airborne has changed recently.. Do you have a current rules/casebook reference?

I'll add; in discussion with the crew post game, they all agreed that
"the time out can't be granted" and that "it was not a change."
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Old Sun Oct 23, 2011, 02:07pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swkansasref33 View Post
Maybe I am wrong, but I seem to remember the rule about being able to call a timeout while airborne has changed recently.
I know more about quantum mechanics than I do about NCAA rules, but I'm pretty sure that the NCAA (college) rule regarding an airborne player about to go out of bounds while possessing the ball and requesting a timeout changed a few years ago, making it illegal to grant such a timeout.

While I'm unsure about the NCAA rule, I'm 100% sure that the timeout will be granted in such a situation under NFHS (high school) rules.

Hopefully one of the esteemed members of this Forum will be moseying along shortly to confirm my interpretation. I guess that they're all watching football, or raking leaves, as I'm about to do in a few minutes..
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Oct 23, 2011 at 02:11pm.
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Old Sun Oct 23, 2011, 02:12pm
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grant the timeout

[QUOTE=soundedlikeastrike;795449]
Quote:
Originally Posted by swkansasref33 View Post


I'll add; in discussion with the crew post game, they all agreed that
"the time out can't be granted" and that "it was not a change."
Might not be an esteemed member but see Rule 5-8-3a. A timeout can be granted when the ball is at the disposal or in CONTROL of a player of the team requesting the timeout. (NFHS) There is nothing that I've read that says deny the request if the player in control is airborne or about to go OOB.

Last edited by billyu2; Sun Oct 23, 2011 at 02:16pm.
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Old Sun Oct 23, 2011, 08:06pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Under NFHS (high school) rules the official should have granted the player a timeout. Not sure about NCAA, or NBA, rule sets.
NCAA
Rule 5, Section 12. Timeouts Not Granted

Art. 1. No timeouts shall be granted:

c. To a player or coach when an airborne player’s momentum is carrying him/her out of bounds or into the backcourt.

NBA
Rule 5, Section VII-Timeout Requests

e. A player shall not be granted any timeout if both of his feet are in the air and any part of his body has broken the vertical plane of the boundary line. This rule also applies to the midcourt line except during throw-ins in the last two minutes of the fourth or any overtime period.


As others have said, under NFHS rules, there is no prohibition on granting a timeout to an airborne player going out of bounds.
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Old Sun Oct 23, 2011, 08:12pm
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[QUOTE=billyu2;795452]
Quote:
Originally Posted by soundedlikeastrike View Post

Might not be an esteemed member but see Rule 5-8-3a. A timeout can be granted when the ball is at the disposal or in CONTROL of a player of the team requesting the timeout. (NFHS) There is nothing that I've read that says deny the request if the player in control is airborne or about to go OOB.
I was stunned at the call, but they sold it.

Is there a protest mechanism in hoops?

I'm really more worried about the ref's, if 3 of em agree, how many more?
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Old Sun Oct 23, 2011, 08:16pm
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[QUOTE=soundedlikeastrike;795485]
Quote:
Originally Posted by billyu2 View Post
Is there a protest mechanism in hoops?
Pretty much up to the league.
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Old Sun Oct 23, 2011, 08:31pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soundedlikeastrike View Post
3. Another unrelated, but again seems different too me?
"Travel calls" seem to be way up, is there POE out there this year?
I've heard it now about "4-5" times, "he picked up the pivot foot."

In my simple mind, a player can indeed pick up the pivot foot, just can't put it back down. Has something changed?
By the way, I am a master at the jump stop/step through or reverse pivot, so I know, I pick up my pivot foot, this continues to go uncalled as has been normal the past few decades.

I don't know, so here I am, does this ole dog need to learn new tricks?
No, it's not a POE, Players just watch the NBA and think they can walk all over the court. So we constantly have to call it.

As for picking up the pivot foot, a player who lifts his pivot before releasing the dribble has traveled.

As for your jump stop/step, if you jump off one foot, ypou must land simultaneously on both feet. Then, you CANNOT step with either foot.
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Old Mon Oct 24, 2011, 06:17am
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5-4-2 ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by soundedlikeastrike View Post
Is there a protest mechanism in hoops?
The NFHS Basketball Rules Committee does not recognize protests.
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Old Mon Oct 24, 2011, 10:40am
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1. They're wrong. But you have to deal with it.

2. Rec league, this may not be called much. It should, but you have to deal with it.

3. We'd have to see the plays, but it's possible they're calling it wrong. But you have to deal with it.

Appeal? Did that possession cost you the game? You just have to deal with it.
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Old Wed Oct 26, 2011, 03:50am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BktBallRef View Post
No, it's not a POE, Players just watch the NBA and think they can walk all over the court. So we constantly have to call it.

As for picking up the pivot foot, a player who lifts his pivot before releasing the dribble has traveled.

As for your jump stop/step, if you jump off one foot, ypou must land simultaneously on both feet. Then, you CANNOT step with either foot.
What if the player jumps off of one foot, ends the dribble while airborne, and then lands simultaneously on two feet?
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Old Thu Oct 27, 2011, 09:41pm
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Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
1. They're wrong. But you have to deal with it.

2. Rec league, this may not be called much. It should, but you have to deal with it.

3. We'd have to see the plays, but it's possible they're calling it wrong. But you have to deal with it.

Appeal? Did that possession cost you the game? You just have to deal with it.
[
No timeout call:
1. We delt with it fine, not much too say when your slacked jawed and wondering how we're gonna pull this mess out (the game that is.) I'd prefer to deal with it by letting the Assoc. know they've got at least 3 guys believing this.

The lane violation:
2. I've seen it called plenty over the years, had one last night in fact, we're shooting, one of our guys leans in loses his balance and enters the lane, whistle, bad guys ball. I don't know ref assignments but I was standing just behind one of em near the table, I can't imagine how he didn't see it, the other ref FLE, the player walked between him and shooter. I watched it, my bench guys behind me saw it? I believe the crew either didn't see it or they didn't know it?
Either way, nothing wrong with communicating with the assoc., just in case.

The walks:
3. True.

Appeal?
No. Protest, (like official), basketball players do not miss bases, leave early nor bat out of order. Say a shot carooms off the rim, straight up over the the top of the BB falling directly behind the rim, an offensive player catches it and lays in a nice reverse lay-in. I'm sure everyone agree that ruling is against the rules. If the crew say's it good, there is nothing in place to get this one right?

Did it cost us the game?
If the timeout is granted; we've 20 or so ticks left, have the throw in on the base line, a bucket full of plays, 3 shooters, and two dunkers on the floor. As it turned out there up 2 with the throw in, we gotta foul em, they hit both ends now we're down 4. We gotta good look at a 3 missed, chased down a long bound and launched a prayer, the D did a nice job of staying away from us so as not to commit the 3 and 1 we were looking for.
But:
We were up 4 with at about 2:15-20, with the ball and in the bonus, we turned it over TWICE, then broke down and lost "both" there shooters and gave up two TRES, so my feeling, no, neither of these calls cost us the game.

Now all those phantom walks, that's a different story..kidding of course.

BBRef: I'll argue with ya about these statements: but again my books are in the mail, go easy on me.

No, it's not a POE, Players just watch the NBA and think they can walk all over the court. So we constantly have to call it.

SLAS: I Disagree: I haven't watched other than SC hi-lits since the PSD's (Post Sonic Days).
And when I did even as a young impressionable kid, the last thing I watched was the feet.

As for picking up the pivot foot, a player who lifts his pivot before releasing the dribble has traveled.

SLAS: This sounds nearly impossible, a 3-4 year old first trying to dribble perhaps. What about a lay-in? The pivot foot gets picked up there, drop step, step through. I think, the pivot foot can indeed be picked up, just not put back down, unless, the dribble is released.
Side question: What does release mean? Hit the floor or released from the hand/s?

As for your jump stop/step, if you jump off one foot, ypou must land simultaneously on both feet. Then, you CANNOT step with either foot.

SLAS: I can not fathom jumping off "one foot" to execute a jump stop. So where then?
I pick up my dribble as I launch off both feet, I land simultaneously, I then pivot on which ever foot I can to get some seperatation from the D. Decades, I've been employing and coaching this, I get called ever now and again, not sure but I'd guess less than 1% of the time.

Thank guys.
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Old Thu Oct 27, 2011, 10:01pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soundedlikeastrike View Post
Appeal?
No. Protest, (like official), basketball players do not miss bases, leave early nor bat out of order. Say a shot carooms off the rim, straight up over the the top of the BB falling directly behind the rim, an offensive player catches it and lays in a nice reverse lay-in. I'm sure everyone agree that ruling is against the rules. If the crew say's it good, there is nothing in place to get this one right?
A coach can call a timeout for the purposes of a correctable error (merited free throws, unmerited free throws, wrong shooter, counting or not counting a score, or free throw at a wrong basket), a scorekeeping error (fouls/arrow/score), or a timing mistake. For some of these errors, they can only be corrected within a proper time frame. If the error isn't corrected, then the timeout is charged. If it is, then no timeout is charged. Besides that no, there is no protest like you're envisioning.

Quote:
No, it's not a POE, Players just watch the NBA and think they can walk all over the court. So we constantly have to call it.
I know you didn't say this, but just want to point out that there are plays that are legal by NBA rules, but illegal by NFHS and NCAA rules...and vice versa. Most people don't know this, and the average fan for sure doesn't know this.

Quote:
As for picking up the pivot foot, a player who lifts his pivot before releasing the dribble has traveled.

SLAS: This sounds nearly impossible, a 3-4 year old first trying to dribble perhaps. What about a lay-in? The pivot foot gets picked up there, drop step, step through. I think, the pivot foot can indeed be picked up, just not put back down, unless, the dribble is released.
Side question: What does release mean? Hit the floor or released from the hand/s?
Not really...I'd say the majority (in fact probably all since I can't really think of any other situation) of travel calls at the beginning of a dribble are because the pivot foot was lifted before the ball was released. You've seen this called many times in your life but probably didn't realize the reason. If the pivot foot is picked up, one must shoot or pass the ball before it returns to the ground. If you start a dribble, then one has traveled. Released means the ball has to be out of the hands before the pivot foot is moved. This rule is the same at all levels.


Quote:
As for your jump stop/step, if you jump off one foot, ypou must land simultaneously on both feet. Then, you CANNOT step with either foot.

SLAS: I can not fathom jumping off "one foot" to execute a jump stop. So where then?
I pick up my dribble as I launch off both feet, I land simultaneously, I then pivot on which ever foot I can to get some seperatation from the D. Decades, I've been employing and coaching this, I get called ever now and again, not sure but I'd guess less than 1% of the time.
There are two versions of the jump stop. The first kind, the one most used by players is when a dribble drives to the basket, jumps off of one foot, gathers (ends his dribble) the ball while in the air, and lands on two feet simultaneously. In this case, a player can pivot with either foot if he landed on both simultaneously.

The other kind of jump stop is when a player ends his dribble/gathers the ball with a foot on the floor, jumps off that foot, and lands with both feet...or ends the dribble while airborne, lands on one foot, jumps off that foot, and lands on both feet simultaneously (required). In this case, a player would not be able to pivot on either foot.

As described above, those are the rulings for NFHS and NCAA. For the NBA, the pivot foot is established slightly different so that in the first two examples, one could pivot while in the very last one, you couldn't.
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Last edited by APG; Fri Oct 28, 2011 at 02:40am.
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