team control foul

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by tref

To simplify it even more, if the offense fouls there are no FTs involved. And now thats true if the status of the ball is in or out of bounds.

I know that you responded to Mark Padgett's post, but that still does not solve your problem because in NFHS and NCAA rules, no where will you find an mentiona of an "offensive foul". The reason being is that there is no such animal in NFHS and NCAA rules. The NBA-WNBA ruleset is a different animal. Therefore, use correct terminology.

MTD, Sr.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I know that you responded to Mark Padgett's post, but that still does not solve your problem because in NFHS and NCAA rules, no where will you find an mentiona of an "offensive foul".

While this is true, IMHO it's really just a matter of semantics (unlike an "over the back" foul, which actually communicates false information). We could remove the definitions of "player control foul" and "team control foul" and add a definition for "offensive foul", which would include:

1) player control fouls;
2) team control fouls; and
3) common fouls committed by the throw-in team during the period between the start of the throw-in and either team gaining control.

If we did that, NOTHING in the game would change. I am usually ready to agree with anyone who wants to promote proper verbiage in officiating. In this case, I think, the proper verbiage says the same thing as the "slang".

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

We could remove the definitions of "player control foul" and "team control foul" and add a definition for "offensive foul"....

The flaw here, as BayState pointed out, is that too many people think of a rebounding foul (while there's no team control) by the offensive team as an offensive foul. They'd have a valid point, too, as that team on that end of the floor is still considered to be on offense.

Player/team control determine more rules than just fouls. The more fans that knew about player/team control, the better we'd all be. Stick with control.

[APG]

Originally Posted by bainsey

The flaw here, as BayState pointed out, is that too many people think of a rebounding foul (while there's no team control) by the offensive team as an offensive foul. They'd have a valid point, too, as that team on that end of the floor is still considered to be on offense.

Player/team control determine more rules than just fouls. The more fans that knew about player/team control, the better we'd all be. Stick with control.

I think most people actually think of rebounding fouls as loose ball fouls...just like in the NBA, and expect free throws regardless of whom gets fouled.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by bainsey

The flaw here, as BayState pointed out, is that too many people think of a rebounding foul (while there's no team control) by the offensive team as an offensive foul.

I don't mean to come across as merely contradictory, but I just disagree. I think APG's comment below is actually closer to the truth:

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

I think most people actually think of rebounding fouls as loose ball fouls...just like in the NBA, and expect free throws regardless of whom gets fouled.

[tref]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I know that you responded to Mark Padgett's post, but that still does not solve your problem because in NFHS and NCAA rules, no where will you find an mentiona of an "offensive foul".

Well actually, what I really said was:

Originally Posted by tref

...if the offense fouls there are no FTs involved if there is team control.

Thats not the same as stating that an offensive foul is a type of foul in HS/NCAA

BTW, why do I hear officials say "offense" when they punch a p/c or t/c up North?

*My edit in red makes the statement true & would be easier for newer officials to remember.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by tref

Well actually, what I really said was:



Thats not the same as stating that an offensive foul is a type of foul in HS/NCAA

BTW, why do I hear officials say "offense" when they punch a p/c or t/c up North?

*My edit in red makes the statement true & would be easier for newer officials to remember.

I will concede the point that I read athe word "offense" as the word "offensive" but that does not change the fact that there are no such fouls as "offensive fouls" in the NFHS and NCAA Rules.

That said, by definition: A Player Control Foul (PCF) is a Team Control Foul (TCF) and TCF is a Common Foul (CF) committed by a team when it has Team Control (and there is Team Control when there is Player Control of the ball, but there does not have to be Player Control when there is Team Control) of the ball. And "newer" officials NEED to learn the definitions.

Why do some officials say "offense" when they have a PCF or TCF? I don't know but I would love to slap then up side the head with a wet noodle when they do.

MTD, Sr.

[tref]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

That said, by definition: A Player Control Foul (PCF) is a Team Control Foul (TCF) and TCF is a Common Foul (CF) committed by a team when it has Team Control (and there is Team Control when there is Player Control of the ball, but there does not have to be Player Control when there is Team Control) of the ball. And "newer" officials NEED to learn the definitions.

Why do some officials say "offense" when they have a PCF or TCF? I don't know but I would love to slap then up side the head with a wet noodle when they do.

I'd agree with that, there's no substitution for knowing the definitions!

Not a wet noodle What do you say at the spot when you punch one?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by tref

I'd agree with that, there's no substitution for knowing the definitions!

Not a wet noodle What do you say at the spot when you punch one?

I don't say anything. I just let my picture perfect NFHS/NCAA/FIBA Approved Mechanics do my talking.

MTD, Sr.

[RookieDude]

Originally Posted by tref

i'd agree with that, there's no substitution for knowing the definitions!

Not a wet noodle :d what do you say at the spot when you punch one?

"boom"!!

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Why do some officials say "offense" when they have a PCF or TCF? I don't know but I would love to slap then up side the head with a wet noodle when they do.

MTD, Sr.

Some of us have been instructed to do so at summer camps. The assignors and evaluators desire a verbal as well as your physical mechanic. They don't like calls being made in silence. The feeling is that it doesn't convey strength.

[tref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Some of us have been instructed to do so at summer camps. The assignors and evaluators desire a verbal as well as your physical mechanic. They don't like calls being made in silence. The feeling is that it doesn't convey strength.

Value of voice

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Some of us have been instructed to do so at summer camps. The assignors and evaluators desire a verbal as well as your physical mechanic. They don't like calls being made in silence. The feeling is that it doesn't convey strength.

If an evaluator advises you to say "charge" or "block" or "Player Control" or "Team Control", I do not have a problem with that, BUT, I do have a problem with saying "offensive" because there is no such animal. But as an evaluator, it does not bother me one way or the other if the calling official does or does not say "charge" or "block" or "Player Control" or "Team Control" while signaling, because the signal says it all. To me it is just another evaluator trying to micro-manage his officials instead of knowing what is and is not in the Mechanics Manual.

MTD, Sr.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

If an evaluator advises you to say "charge" or "block" or "Player Control" or "Team Control", I do not have a problem with that, BUT, I do have a problem with saying "offensive" because there is no such animal. But as an evaluator, it does not bother me one way or the other if the calling official does or does not say "charge" or "block" or "Player Control" or "Team Control" while signaling, because the signal says it all. To me it is just another evaluator trying to micro-manage his officials instead of knowing what is and is not in the Mechanics Manual.

MTD, Sr.

There are a lot of things we do that is not in the Manual (or any manual for that matter). But this sounds silly as what difference does it make what you say. You blow the whistle that should be enough to show strength.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

There are a lot of things we do that is not in the Manual (or any manual for that matter). But this sounds silly as what difference does it make what you say. You blow the whistle that should be enough to show strength.

Peace

I do think it matters what you say....but only to a point. Personally, I don't say offense, but I have no problem with offense vs. any of the others. On the other hand, somethings could be said that don't accurately communicate the call...illegal screen vs moving screen (which can be legal).