FT shot ball doesn't hit rim....

[RUBLIND?]

Ok a friend had this problem... Shooter is at the FT line, his team down by 2, 3 sec left, on his 2nd shot he throws ball of of the backboard and skins the rim, underneath official blows whistle that it didn't hit rim, but it did, in the meantime it was perfect the shooter got the ball back. After a discussion they award ball to team that was shooting and had possesion of the ball. They could have went alternate possession which I thought would be right which was to other team. They were reported to the state and the state agreed with the call?? Oh, it was a district final and the team hit a 3 to win!! What do you think?? Also clarify this for me, guy loses ball going through lane and trips accidently over opp teams leg, he wants the foul. No call right? What if he had the ball and defender was set and he tripped? Thank you, first time on here.

[TXMATTHEW05]

Seems like everything was done correctly here. Officials handled it well.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by RUBLIND?
Ok a friend had this problem... Shooter is at the FT line, his team down by 2, 3 sec left, on his 2nd shot he throws ball of of the backboard and skins the rim, underneath official blows whistle that it didn't hit rim, but it did, in the meantime it was perfect the shooter got the ball back. After a discussion they award ball to team that was shooting and had possesion of the ball. They could have went alternate possession which I thought would be right which was to other team. They were reported to the state and the state agreed with the call?? Oh, it was a district final and the team hit a 3 to win!! What do you think?? Also clarify this for me, guy loses ball going through lane and trips accidently over opp teams leg, he wants the foul. No call right? What if he had the ball and defender was set and he tripped? Thank you, first time on here.

I am only address the free throw situation because the second situation is a you had to be there situation.

I am going to speculate that this was a two-man crew. But it really does not matter whether it was a two-person or three-person crew, the Lead official had no business looking up at the rim, let alone making the call. The Trail stepped in made the right decision to award the ball to the team shooting the free throw.

Why is this the correct thing to do, even though the rules book says that an official should call any infraction he sees? An officiating crew is a team. Each member of the team has to do is job for the crew to work together smoothly. This is one of the few times that when an official leaves his primary to make a call that he has no business making and he blows the call, the official who has the primary area has to take care of business and correct the mistake.

[TXMATTHEW05]

This is one of the few times that when an official leaves his primary to make a call that he has no business making

Granted he blew the call, but what justice are you doing to the game by not calling what you see? If I see an honest foul, even if in my partner's area, and he doesn't call it, than I will. It doesn't bother me the least bit in the sense that I know what I saw and that it gave a disadvantage to the other team.

Any call is the official's call. It's his business to make the call. I'd say you were out of line saying he has no business doing so. An official that won't make a call just because it wasn't in his "primary" needs to consider the disservice they are doing to the game. Call what you see - don't pick and choose.

[PAULK1]

My question is when did the official sound the whistle,
before or after the the rebound.

Once the official sounded his whistle the play was dead.
Since the conclusion was the official had made a mistake
this is an inadvertant whistle.

If there is no team control it goes to the AP

If there was team control it goes to the team in control.

[Dan_ref]

I agree with Mark. This is the trail's (2 man) call all the way, the lead has no business blowing the whistle on this. The T has the best view, period.

[canuckrefguy]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by TXMATTHEW05

An official that won't make a call just because it wasn't in his "primary" needs to consider the disservice they are doing to the game. Call what you see - don't pick and choose.

MTD is right, the lead official had no business making the call. What is he doing looking UP? He's supposed to be watching rebounding activity! He's lucky one of the rebounders didn't get bodychecked to the floor. What then? He missed it because he's too busy ball-hawking, and his partner probably missed it too, as he's watching the ball.

No one is disputing the notion that if you see an obvious, hard foul that your partner misses, that calling it is the right thing to do. But when it comes to specific situations like FT's, primary areas of responsibility exist so the officials can properly administer the game, and cover all possibilities adequately.

I also agree that if the whistle went before anyone had possession, they should have went AP.

Bad time for that official to have a brain-cramp, IMHO.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by TXMATTHEW05
Granted he blew the call, but what justice are you doing to the game by not calling what you see? . . . I'd say you were out of line saying he has no business doing so.

TX, what justice was the Lead doing to the rebounding action by looking up at the rim? The point is not that the Lead shouldn't make the call if he sees it; the point is that he shouldn't see it in this case. If he's doing his job properly, he's not looking at the flight of the ball, period.

Mark was exactly right in saying that the Lead has no business making this call. And not just cuz I say so, I think many others have agreed in this thread.

Chuck

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by TXMATTHEW05
Granted he blew the call, but what justice are you doing to the game by not calling what you see?

Because what he saw wasn't what happened. And, that's more likely to happen when you are looking outside your area (the lead looking at the rim in this instance).

If the shot "missed by a lot" and the T didn't blow the whistle, L could have taken it. But, this was obviously a close call -- let the primary live with it.

[Mregor]

[i]

Granted he blew the call, but what justice are you doing to the game by not calling what you see? If I see an honest foul, even if in my partner's area, and he doesn't call it, than I will. It doesn't bother me the least bit in the sense that I know what I saw and that it gave a disadvantage to the other team.

Any call is the official's call. It's his business to make the call. I'd say you were out of line saying he has no business doing so. An official that won't make a call just because it wasn't in his "primary" needs to consider the disservice they are doing to the game. Call what you see - don't pick and choose. [/B]

The point is, you shouldn't see anything in your partner's area (except in certain circumstances). If you are looking in your partner's area, who's watching yours? There's much more to it than jsut calling your area, but that is what was meant when he said the lead should not be looking at the rim on the FT; that's the trails responsibility.

Mregor


Ooops, I see Chuch beat me to it

[Edited by Mregor on Mar 5th, 2003 at 10:48 AM]

[BigJoe]

TX,
This is officiating 101. The lead should NEVER see the ball go in the basket on a free throw! I see this all to often. The shot goes up and the leads head follows the flight of the ball. You should use peripheral vision to determe that the shot has passed the plane of the rim only. Once that has happened you should be focused solely on the lane violations and subsequent rebounding action. This is something that you should strive for. The lead should also not see basket interference, either. Sorry to preach, but this is a sore spot with me.

[BigJoe]

One thing I just thought of. This call lead me to calling my only T in seven years on a coach in a Varsity game. I was the lead on a free throw. The ball hit the backboard and I was focused on the rebounding action. The offensive team rebounded the ball and scored a basket on the missed free throw. I was table side and the visiting coaches were screaming at me that the ball didn't hit the rim. I was running down the court and set up as trail. Both coaches continued their tirade and finally I decided that if they were dumb enough not to know it wasn't my call I was going to make a call!!! I T'd up the assistant coach for standing up. I sort of felt sorry for the head coach as her team was down by 40 at the time. By the way, my partner said that the ball grazed the rim off of the board.

[Dan_ref]

Over the last 2 weeks I have had games with interesting missed rim on FT situations.

HS game, loser goes home, I'm L on FTs, A1 puts the second shot up and it comes almost straight down. I'm guessing the ball missed but there's no whistle when A2 grabs the ball and gets fouled on the layup which went in. Coach B can hardly contain himself "He missed! The FT missed!" Partner says nope, grazed the rim, but the coach is turning red, I mean I really thought the guy's heart was about to explode. After reporting the foul I spoke with him a few minutes, he wasn't happy but he calmed down. If I would have blown the whistle on my gut feel that the ball missed the game would have gone into the toilet. No question about that.

Travel league game, below 8th grade, no big deal but again loser goes home. Good game for this level, last minute, A up by 1 and shooting FTs. This time I'm T when the ball grazes the rim on the final FT and L blows the whistle for a rim violation. Defense got the rebound anyway so I let it go, but if the offense had gotten the ball or if the ball was still loose I would have had to change his call. Later he told me he wasn't ball watching, he blew the whistle (and the call) because he "thought" the ball missed the rim.

[Blackhawk357]

The reason that the Lead should NEVER call this is to avoid this EXACT situation. He has a poor angle, and he has other responsibilities. Just think how nice this game would have ended if the Lead here had only done his job. You MUST trust your partner in 99% of the situations you run into.

As to the actual play, What a delema! I understand what the game officials did, but there is the question ~ Do you go with the AP arrow like the book says, or do you give the team a chance to win that would have had that chance if the official had not screwed up?

How can you question the decision that was made? That Trail has a lot of guts, and is the kind of guy I want on the floor with me in a tough game. Hopefully the Lead learned a big lesson that night.

Blackhawk

[APHP]

O.K.--O.K.--Everyone agrees it's not the lead's call!! The question is what to do once he has blown it...I disagree with Mark--by rule it is an AP throw-in...no player/team control. The official(s) have already screwed up once, don't compound the situation by ignoring the rule(s) and screw up again. Not following proper mechanics got them into this mess, by not following the rules won't get them out of it. I can't agree that two-wrongs make a right.