Dual violations on first of two FT's

[Tee]

8th grade girls game today, A1 shooting first of two Free throws, missed rim. At same? time B1 in lowest spot stepped into lane.

If B1 stepped first- no problem, award A1 another try on the first shot.

If B1 stepped in after the ball had missed rim- no problem- ignore it, and proceed to second free throw.

Obviously the problem is if they happen at same time, as appearently happened. I say appearently, because as trail, I was not looking at B1 in low spot.

If this were the second of 2 shots or a 1 and 1, then AP?

[Nevadaref]

Not exactly.
If B1 stepped in first, then A1 shot an airball, the correct ruling is a double violation. (Unless you rule that B1 disconcerted the shooter. I don't believe that would be correct.) No point is scored. If this shot is to be followed by another free throw, you proceed to that. If it is the last throw, then use the AP for possession on the endline.
If the airball is first, the ball is dead immediately and the stepping of B1 is ignored. You got this one right. Team B gets the ball if the last shot, if other shots warranted, they are awarded.
If they happen at the same time, it is a double violation and you either award any remaining throws or go to the AP.

[JRutledge]

Let us also remember that both cannot be considered a Lane Line violation. Only the actions by B1 can be considered that. So if A1 misses regardless of which one happen first, you have to go with a double FT violation (unless on the missed rim you did not rule the ball dead already). So B1 has to wait until the ball touches the floor or any player or the FT ends, technically.

Peace

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by JRutledge
Let us also remember that both cannot be considered a Lane Line violation.

For those who like to criticize Jeff's rule knowledge, let it be noted here that he's exactly right on this point. Violations by the FT shooter are not considered "lane line violations"; therefore a lane line violation plus a shooter's violation is still treated as a double violation.

Chuck

[theboys]

So...being the devious howler monkey I am, is the following scenario possible (and legal, of course):

My team is down by 2, with 2 seconds left. My player is shooting the second of two FTs. If he makes it, we're still down by one, and chances of winning are slim, and his buddy, none. If he misses it, same chances. But, I realize the AP arrow is pointing my way. So, I tell my shooter during my last time out (between the FTs), to slightly delay as he shoots his FT, anticipating the opponents will try like heck to jump in the lane and box us out. I tell my players not to get in the lane until well after the ball is released. I then tell my shooter, if the opponents do jump in the lane early, to shoot an air ball. Would you call the double violation in this situation? Or, did slim exit with the refs, and leave me with none? What if I told you ahead of time that the possibility existed that my shooter, because he's nervous, of course, could shoot an airball if the opponents happen to move early?

[just another ref]

Originally posted by theboys
So...being the devious howler monkey I am, is the following scenario possible (and legal, of course):

My team is down by 2, with 2 seconds left. My player is shooting the second of two FTs. If he makes it, we're still down by one, and chances of winning are slim, and his buddy, none. If he misses it, same chances. But, I realize the AP arrow is pointing my way. So, I tell my shooter during my last time out (between the FTs), to slightly delay as he shoots his FT, anticipating the opponents will try like heck to jump in the lane and box us out. I tell my players not to get in the lane until well after the ball is released. I then tell my shooter, if the opponents do jump in the lane early, to shoot an air ball. Would you call the double violation in this situation? Or, did slim exit with the refs, and leave me with none? What if I told you ahead of time that the possibility existed that my shooter, because he's nervous, of course, could shoot an airball if the opponents happen to move early?

Unless the "slight delay" contains some kind of action which could be ruled as a fake, this sounds like a plan to me. Only problem I see is that now that it has appeared in print, all the other coaches will eventually read about it, either here, or in some Devious Howler Monkey magazine. You are a genius.

[Mregor]

Originally posted by JRutledge
Let us also remember that both cannot be considered a Lane Line violation. Only the actions by B1 can be considered that. So if A1 misses regardless of which one happen first, you have to go with a double FT violation (unless on the missed rim you did not rule the ball dead already). So B1 has to wait until the ball touches the floor or any player or the FT ends, technically.

Peace

The FT also ends when it is apparent that it will not be successful. You don't have to wait until it touches a player or the floor. I would not call a double violation unless the B player went in extremely early. I'd lean more to blowing it dead because of the missed rim.

Mregor

[Edited by Mregor on Mar 5th, 2003 at 11:20 AM]

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by theboys
What if I told you ahead of time that the possibility existed that my shooter, because he's nervous, of course, could shoot an airball if the opponents happen to move early?

Technically, your scenario would be a double violation. However, if you told the official that the defender's movement makes your shooter nervous, you might end up buying yourself a disconcertion violation instead of the double violation. Then you just get another FT. If you're gonna use your tactic, I would suggest that you simply do it and not tell the officials. Just my opinion.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Mregor


The FT also ends when it is apparent that it will not be successful. You don't have to wait until it touches a player or the floor. I would not call a double violation unless the B player went in extremely early. I'd lean more to blowing it dead because of the missed rim.

Mregor

Well this is where judgement comes in. You have to determine what happen first if they did not happen practically at the same time. If you feel that B1 came in the lane first, then you could have a double violation. If you feel the ball would have missed first or it was obvious to everyone, then maybe you can kind of look the other way on the actions of B1. Either way call what obviously happen and what you can sell.

Peace

[Blackhawk357]

All the discussion is interesting. The answer to the "short" question is yes. If there is a double violation, and the AP arrow is yours, you get a throw-in closest point to the violation.

The tough part is controlling what the other team does. Any attempt to fake or trick you opponent into a violation is not what we like to see. If an opponent is in early, shoot an air-ball, but it will seldom, if ever work to trick him in. IMHO

Blackhawk