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Mon Jul 17, 2000, 12:31am
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What I find works is to give the coach some coaching advice. E.G. "Coach, go to a zone instead of man" "Coach, don't run that play it isnt working" "Coach, a 2-3 zone defense works better against their offense" Pretty soon coach will respond with something like "Don't tell me how to coach" to which I reply "and don't tell me how to call the game".
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Mon Jul 17, 2000, 12:58am
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As previously posted, here are some "Dave-isms" to that question:
"You mean right AND wrong?" After indicating a foul while reporting it to table - "OK, I will. Blue 44. 44 Blue. Satisfied now?" "Sorry coach, they only taught us one way in camp - the right way. If you want us to start calling them wrong, just let us know." My personal favorite: "Woof, woof." This can be used to reply to almost any dumb coaching inquiry. 
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Mon Jul 17, 2000, 09:08am
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I'm trying to build up some comebacks for coaches and players, when their on the warpath for no real reason. I know that you have to have your own style, but maybe this will get me started. The one I'm really looking for is what do you comeback with, when they say "Call it both ways".
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Mon Jul 17, 2000, 03:53pm
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quote: The problem with this approach is that in elevates the confrontation between you. You just eliminated any possibility of working together. Something that has been suggested to me is "Give me something specific, coach. What are you seeing?" Sometimes the simple "Ok, coach, I hear you" can help.
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Mon Jul 17, 2000, 05:20pm
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Nothing irks me more than the "call it both ways" comment."
 They have gone from questioning my judgement to questioning my integrity. I have let that comment go, but it's also a phrase in which I hav felt that the best "Comeback" is a "T"
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Tue Jul 18, 2000, 08:38am
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quote: How right u r I feel the best way is to say ok coach I hear u as i go past him this at least lest him know that he is not being ignored. And as far as the call it both was comment. I agree A "T" stops it pretty quick ------------------
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Tue Jul 18, 2000, 11:34am
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Tony, Come backs to coaches only make us feel better as refs, but don't solve any problems. If anything they exacerbate (make worse, for those wondering) the problem. I should know because I'm a smart a-- by nature. My mouth got me into more trouble early in my career than any call I ever made! If you have the desire to move to a high level of officiating and more importantly want to stay there here is the best advice I ever recieved. "All questions are answered and all comments are ignored." These words of wisdom came from a man who should know he's worked a couple final fours. If anything we need to be more professional than the coaches, God knows that should not be to hard. Best of luck Tony.
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Tue Jul 18, 2000, 11:07pm
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I believe, as a coach, that the ref has to put themselves above the situation and be the voice of reason. I enjoy the Dave-isms as cute jokes, but don't think they should be employed in a game environment. Take what you think you should take, communicate what you need to communicate, and if all else fails, go to the T. Then go right back to taking it and communicating calmly. The best refs I have had are the ones that keep above the level of the talk that is directed their way. I am sure there are coaches who respect no refs. I also beleive that the refs who can stay out of the fray and call a good game with a cool head have the respect of almost every coach, regardless of what you may hear from them in the heat of battle.
Parting thought - A referee's authority is established by law in the rules, but in acutality by comportment on the court. The ref is the only neutral party on the court, with no competitive interest. Exchanging witticisms with a coach becomes a competition in and of itself and ultimately degrades the neutral authority of the referee. I am not suggesting that their objectivity is compromised, but a refs de facto authority comes from the appearance of objectivity. Lose that appearance and you lose respect and the authority that goes with it.
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Wed Jul 19, 2000, 11:37am
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Hawks Coach had some very good comments - except about Daveisms, of course
 About 5 years ago, I was working a rec league game for kids which had a no-zone rule. If an offensive player was inside the 3 point line, he had to be guarded m2m within 6 feet. This one coach (who was also a high school freshman team coach) kept yelling at me that I wasn't calling the no-zone rule because this one player wasn't being guarded properly. Every time he complained, his player was outside the 3 point line so, according to the rule, he didn't have to be guarded and the "extra" defender was free to go wherever he wanted. After about the fourth or fifth time he yelled, I politely (really!) suggested to him that if he brought his man just inside the line, that I would call it. His comment was, "I don't need you to teach me how to coach." My reply was, "And I don't need you to teach me how to officiate." He just stared at me, but didn't say another word the rest of the game. He didn't make the adjustment, either. I hated getting that way with a coach, but I felt that in this particular case, I was somewhat justified to respond in that manner due to his attitude. I should mention that I was (and still am) on the board of that league, so I felt I had some authority behind me. The following year, when I became Chair of the rules committee, the first thing I did was trash that rule.
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Thu Jul 20, 2000, 12:35am
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The real question is, How can we clone Hawks' Coach? IS he always this rational and far-seeing? What area of the country is he from? Do they teach this in his school district? And in my insecure moments, I wonder if I've worked for him and what he thought!!
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Thu Jul 20, 2000, 02:34am
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hawks Coach:
I believe, as a coach, that the ref has to put themselves above the situation and be the voice of reason.[QUOTE] I agree. [QUOTE]I enjoy the Dave-isms as cute jokes, but don't think they should be employed in a game environment.[QUOTE] Again, I agree. [QUOTE]I also beleive that the refs who can stay out of the fray and call a good game with a cool head have the respect of almost every coach, regardless of what you may hear from them in the heat of battle.[QUOTE] Wow. This is a coach I can work with. [QUOTE]Parting thought - A referee's authority is established by law in the rules, but in acutality by comportment on the court.[QUOTE] You get an A+ . Wholeheartedly agree.
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Thu Jul 20, 2000, 03:40pm
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quote: I see that he is from Maryland. Too bad, we need his type here in California. One thing I suggested to our association board is to begin considering post-season coaches awards from the officials. There is plenty of reward for those who win, but my point is the program is not intended to product Michael Jordans, or if so it is failing. (There aren't that many MJs around!) The program should develop young adults of good character that are better equiped for life as an adult. Thus the emphasis on sportsmanship. And the award? It would be for leadership in sportsmanship. As an example, this last year I did several games for the Calistoga girls' JV team. They were cosistently beaten, sometimes badly. However, in every game, to the very last tick of the clock, they worked hard, played clean, kept positive attitudes -- everything I would hope my own kids would do. And this was not just the characteristics of the team captain or just a few, but of every last player on the team. My experience says you don't see such uniform behavior without strong leadership of that from the coach. Obviously the logistics of such an award could be tricky, plus issues of maintaining objectivity, even year to year. Those discusions belong in a different thread -- not here. The point here is to echo appreciation to such objectivity on a coaches part.
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Thu Jul 20, 2000, 06:38pm
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First, I should say that I remain a very competitive individual and want to win games. I try conscientiously to maintain self control, especially with regard to officiating for a couple of reasons. For one thing, I have to get a team to perform regardless of what the conditions are, refereeing being a condition of play. If my players don't think the refs are calling fouls right, they need to adjust. I try to get this concept across to my team, and yelling at the refs doesn't help make that case. It just gives players an excuse for losing (remember that I am still competitive at heart!). I will admit to getting frustrated with poor refereeing (and poor play and even my poor coaching), but I don't get into a conflict with the referees because that isn't appropriate for me, and my players shouldn't see that from an adult leader, a more important reason for maintaining self control. Final reason is that I have done the ref job in scrimmages and other friendly competitions where my players begin to get mad at my no-calls and calls. I know how tough your job is and if you all quit because of me, I am gonna have to do it!
I try not to complain about individual calls, but won't claim perfection. I even felt bad this summer about one incident. My guard got called for a backcourt when he only had one foot cross the line then brought that foot back on the dribble. I said to the ref "it takes all three" and he looked shocked, said "you are right" and reversed himself. I was glad the call was corrected, but I felt bad when he was admitting he had made a mistake because he looked so uncomfortable. On sportmanship awards - GREAT IDEA!!! Our youth soccer club in Montgomery County MD, with 15,000 participants, does have such an award, given to one team in each division (and with this many kids playing, that's a lot of awards). The referee fills out a card for each game, that in addition to listing conference, team, coaches, and scores, has a rating for player, coach, and parent sportsmanship. Pretty simple, three ratings on a 1-5 scale for each team. Also, coaches can give positive input for their colleagues for the award. Each team that wins the award gets a sportsmanship award patch for every player. I got one and am as proud of it as my championship awards (which I also take pride in, especially since I refuse to break rules or compromise my players' interest just to win a championship). The soccer league has done so much to promote sportsmanship that many people take it very seriously, much more so than in other leagues where I have coached. I had one coach that was winning his first game ever against my team in 7 v 7. He allowed us an extra player on the field for the second half because they were up 5-0 (I know I would not have thought to do that on my own if I was up 5-0!). I played with that extra player until we cut the margin to two goals. We ended up with our first multiple goal game (this was a brand new team playing in an experienced league) and our team gained some confidence. Two seasons later we were league champs, with an assist to that coach (I gave back by giving him a strong plug for the sportmanship award and he justifiably won it). I highly encourage sportmanship recognition and active promotion of sportsmanship. It will take a lot of time to show results and will have diminished effects depending on the competitive level of play. The higher the stakes competitively, the less likely coaches, players and parents are to pay attention to any sportsmanship pleas from leagues. But if a huge league can pull it off and see improvement, anybody can.
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