whaddya got?

[zeedonk]

Boys V summer league, very good ball. A1 gets ball in post and turns and attempts shot. B1 grabs A1's arm-tweet! As I hit whistle A1regroups and jumps into B2 (pretty much all happened in a quick second or two- htbt).
B1 argues call with me after I report- "why no offensive foul?" I explain his foul was first and subsequent contact was incidental, and if he didn't grab the arm it WOULD have been a pc foul.
All this happens immediately after reporting and I turn to head opposite table when we are in each others way and brush past each other as happens many times during any game. I reach out to stop us from colliding an give him a little pat on the back as I go by. B1 then pushes my arms off of him and says loudly but not screamingly "get your hands off me! Don't touch me!" Bang- unsporting T, which is immediately met with "I don't give a. ***k!" and B1 is shown the door. He had not been a problem until.right then and the game was spirited but under control.
There have been some recent discussions about touching coaches and players so.I thought I'd relay this for comment. I don't usually touch anyone, but do on occasion offer the pat on the rump (boys only) or reach out to stop a player from walking into me. Most of.the time it seems to help in terms of communication with players, but only if the conversation is going well.
It should be noted that I initially whacked him for the combo push and verbal retort. Would most likely have just had a brief and clear comment about knocking it off if he only did one or the other. 2nd whack was self explanatory.

Thoughts?

[Scuba_ref]

I don't smack anyone on the rump except my wife and then only when she makes a good play.

Seriously, I posted on another thread that the supervisor of officials for the NCAA division blabbetty blab in the area here told me to never ever touch a player or coach. His comment was followed by an example where a female official smacked a college women's player on the rump. After the game the coach or the AD (can't remember which) called the supervisor and said that the official was a lesbian and wanted to pursue some sort of disciplinary action. The supervisor told me that he can never send that official to that school again.

[Adam]

Seems to me the ball was dead when A1 jumped into B1, so a good no call. I know you didn't ask, but...
Also, it may work for you most times, but I'd still avoid such contact in the future. Maybe a pat on the back when the situation isn't so tense, but never on the "rump." Too much risk for too little benefit.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Seems to me the ball was dead when A1 jumped into B1, so a good no call. I know you didn't ask, but...
Also, it may work for you most times, but I'd still avoid such contact in the future. Maybe a pat on the back when the situation isn't so tense, but never on the "rump." Too much risk for too little benefit.

If the player was attempting a try when fouled, then the ball wasn't dead.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by zeedonk

A1 gets ball in post and turns and attempts shot. B1 grabs Q2 arm-tweet! As I hit whistle A1regroups and jumps into B2 (pretty much all happened in a quick second or two- htbt).

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

If the player was attempting a try when fouled, then the ball wasn't dead.

It is my impression that in the OP the ball was never released. If this is the case, when A1 "regrouped," it indicates to me that the original attempt had ended.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

If the player was attempting a try when fouled, then the ball wasn't dead.

It was after he returned to the floor with the ball and THEN jumped into the defender.

To the OP: I agree with Snaqs. I'm not touching players intentionally in this kind of situation. Warding off a minor collision is one thing, and I'd apologize if I bumped someone.

If his profanity was that loud, he didn't leave you much choice, but you might be able to avoid this kind of situation in future.

[zeedonk]

I am not a "talker" or a "toucher", far from it. I don't go out of my way to explain, talk or inject myself into much on the court. I will talk to a player or a coach if the initial inquiry is pretty calm and mostly respectable.

I understand the Forum's general aversion to touching players and coaches (this is overly broad, I know). The general averison is to prevent a worst case scenario of instigating or in extreme cases, assault and possible litigation.

Having said that, it appears to me that this is being made out to be so much more than it is. If I give a kid a tap on the shoulder, back or behind to get him to come to the spot where he needs to be for a throw in, I see no problem with that. To me, it's better than saying "Over here" 2-3 times while he's trying to listen to me, teammates and coaches setting up a play (and yes, I will let him get all his instructions before putting the ball on the ground and counting).

It also seems to me that this mindset is more of a concern for not insulting or offending someone who is overreacting to a call in the first place and thus doubly overreacting to being touched, period. We do need to be concerned with not overstepping personal boundaries, but I feel that unless we are too touchy and grabby, it is not an issue.

I would agree with those who might suggest that a problem with "too much" touching is a larger societal issue, but I am not letting a kid yell at me to get my hands off him.

[tref]

Originally Posted by zeedonk

A1 gets ball in post and turns and attempts shot. B1 grabs Q2 arm-tweet! As I hit whistle A1 regroups and jumps into B2 (pretty much all happened in a quick second or two- htbt).

I'm confused here, A1 shoots but whos arm did B1 grab?? Is this an off-ball foul?

In this day & age, I'd stay away from any touching of the players/coaches.
Verbally say "nice play" that might not show up on tape, patting of the butt will definitely show up & may take on a life of its own if you piss off the wrong person. And it doesnt take much for US to piss someone off.

All in all, you kinda brought this one on yourself.

Originally Posted by zeedonk

Having said that, it appears to me that this is being made out to be so much more than it is. If I give a kid a tap on the shoulder, back or behind to get him to come to the spot where he needs to be for a throw in, I see no problem with that.

JMO, but *Ewww* not that it matters to your career at all, but I see a huge problem with THAT! Keep your hands to yourself, use your voice & a different cadence in your whistle when you want them to move.
We have too much to lose by touching players/coaches in a situation where half of the participants or more will hate you after the game.

Originally Posted by zeedonk

I would agree with those who might suggest that a problem with "too much" touching is a larger societal issue, but I am not letting a kid yell at me to get my hands off him.

Again, you brought this one on yourself. I dont think physical communication helps bring anyones emotional level down, but verbal can & when it doesn't (as in your situation) I wouldnt then piss em off even more by touching them.

[Mark Padgett]

When we have our pre-season ref meeting for our local kids rec league, we emphasize there are only rare exceptions when it is OK to touch a player. Those exceptions are pretty much limited to trying to prevent a player injuring themselves, such as falling down towards the court. We also tell the coaches at their meetings that about the only physical contact they are allowed to perform with the players are high-fives, handshakes, etc.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by zeedonk

Having said that, it appears to me that this is being made out to be so much more than it is. If I give a kid a tap on the shoulder, back or behind to get him to come to the spot where he needs to be for a throw in, I see no problem with that. To me, it's better than saying "Over here" 2-3 times while he's trying to listen to me, teammates and coaches setting up a play (and yes, I will let him get all his instructions before putting the ball on the ground and counting).

I agree completely with your points (not quoted) about the kid overreacting. But I would encourage you to look at the definition of assault: in most states, it includes unwanted physical contact (sometimes called "offensive touching"). Your defense of "keeping the game moving" is not a sound legal defense against an allegation of assault, an allegation which all by itself might end your officiating career.

Perhaps you live in a region where you know all of the players and their families, or where people are not at all litigious, or where such touching is the norm. I know that I would never try it around here.

I don't care if I have to say "over here" 5 times: the game won't start until I put the ball in play.

[SAK]

I have a personal rule about touching a player; avoid when possible. However to keep a player from running in to me I may end up touching a player. In this case it is obvious that I this is not something I want to do but something that I need to do for my own protection on the court.

So far as the Ts, I think that you brought this on yourself and now have drawn more attention to the action. By giving the first T you gave the player, although ill advised, an opportunity to say something. What he said needed to be addressed but if you put yourself in this situation...

Take it for what its worth but I would continue to avoid touching players when possible and never touch a player in an area covered by a bathing suit as it looks bad and is inappropriate. I know that I even hate it when a player gives me a pat on the "rump" while saying "nice call ref."

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by SAK

I have a personal rule about touching a player; avoid when possible. However to keep a player from running in to me I may end up touching a player. In this case it is obvious that I this is not something I want to do but something that I need to do for my own protection on the court.

There's clearly a difference between touching a player and being contacted by a player.

[SAK]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

There's clearly a difference between touching a player and being contacted by a player.

I realize this but to avoid a player from running into me I may extend my arms and contact the player.

[zeedonk]

Originally Posted by SAK

I realize this but to avoid a player from running into me I may extend my arms and contact the player.

All fair points. I understand the comments about bringing this on myself, but don't agree, but I will leave that there because I think reasonable minds can differ on that...


So let's change the facts a bit to the above quote. What if I (or you) contact a player who might otherwise collide with you (live or dead ball) and he turns around and pushes you away and yells "get your hands off me"....

Q1- if the ball is live or in play, what, if anything do you do? Anybody whacking here?

Q1(a) are you whacking if he has been a PIA during the game? How about if not?

Q2- if the ball is dead or not in play say you are reporting a time out, turn and a player is about to run you over getting to the huddle and you grab him to avoid a collision and he pushes you away and yells "get your hands off me"...? anybody whacking here?

I'm not saying I would in either case, but the discussion is interesting. A lot of things go into that decision on how to react....

[zeedonk]

Originally Posted by tref

I'm confused here, A1 shoots but whos arm did B1 grab?? Is this an off-ball foul?

Yeah, that's a pretty terrible typo- B1 fouls A1. Think I fixed it...