whaddya got?

[zeedonk]

I am not a "talker" or a "toucher", far from it. I don't go out of my way to explain, talk or inject myself into much on the court. I will talk to a player or a coach if the initial inquiry is pretty calm and mostly respectable.

I understand the Forum's general aversion to touching players and coaches (this is overly broad, I know). The general averison is to prevent a worst case scenario of instigating or in extreme cases, assault and possible litigation.

Having said that, it appears to me that this is being made out to be so much more than it is. If I give a kid a tap on the shoulder, back or behind to get him to come to the spot where he needs to be for a throw in, I see no problem with that. To me, it's better than saying "Over here" 2-3 times while he's trying to listen to me, teammates and coaches setting up a play (and yes, I will let him get all his instructions before putting the ball on the ground and counting).

It also seems to me that this mindset is more of a concern for not insulting or offending someone who is overreacting to a call in the first place and thus doubly overreacting to being touched, period. We do need to be concerned with not overstepping personal boundaries, but I feel that unless we are too touchy and grabby, it is not an issue.

I would agree with those who might suggest that a problem with "too much" touching is a larger societal issue, but I am not letting a kid yell at me to get my hands off him.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by zeedonk

Having said that, it appears to me that this is being made out to be so much more than it is. If I give a kid a tap on the shoulder, back or behind to get him to come to the spot where he needs to be for a throw in, I see no problem with that. To me, it's better than saying "Over here" 2-3 times while he's trying to listen to me, teammates and coaches setting up a play (and yes, I will let him get all his instructions before putting the ball on the ground and counting).

I agree completely with your points (not quoted) about the kid overreacting. But I would encourage you to look at the definition of assault: in most states, it includes unwanted physical contact (sometimes called "offensive touching"). Your defense of "keeping the game moving" is not a sound legal defense against an allegation of assault, an allegation which all by itself might end your officiating career.

Perhaps you live in a region where you know all of the players and their families, or where people are not at all litigious, or where such touching is the norm. I know that I would never try it around here.

I don't care if I have to say "over here" 5 times: the game won't start until I put the ball in play.

[SAK]

I have a personal rule about touching a player; avoid when possible. However to keep a player from running in to me I may end up touching a player. In this case it is obvious that I this is not something I want to do but something that I need to do for my own protection on the court.

So far as the Ts, I think that you brought this on yourself and now have drawn more attention to the action. By giving the first T you gave the player, although ill advised, an opportunity to say something. What he said needed to be addressed but if you put yourself in this situation...

Take it for what its worth but I would continue to avoid touching players when possible and never touch a player in an area covered by a bathing suit as it looks bad and is inappropriate. I know that I even hate it when a player gives me a pat on the "rump" while saying "nice call ref."

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by SAK

I have a personal rule about touching a player; avoid when possible. However to keep a player from running in to me I may end up touching a player. In this case it is obvious that I this is not something I want to do but something that I need to do for my own protection on the court.

There's clearly a difference between touching a player and being contacted by a player.

[SAK]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

There's clearly a difference between touching a player and being contacted by a player.

I realize this but to avoid a player from running into me I may extend my arms and contact the player.

[zeedonk]

Originally Posted by SAK

I realize this but to avoid a player from running into me I may extend my arms and contact the player.

All fair points. I understand the comments about bringing this on myself, but don't agree, but I will leave that there because I think reasonable minds can differ on that...


So let's change the facts a bit to the above quote. What if I (or you) contact a player who might otherwise collide with you (live or dead ball) and he turns around and pushes you away and yells "get your hands off me"....

Q1- if the ball is live or in play, what, if anything do you do? Anybody whacking here?

Q1(a) are you whacking if he has been a PIA during the game? How about if not?

Q2- if the ball is dead or not in play say you are reporting a time out, turn and a player is about to run you over getting to the huddle and you grab him to avoid a collision and he pushes you away and yells "get your hands off me"...? anybody whacking here?

I'm not saying I would in either case, but the discussion is interesting. A lot of things go into that decision on how to react....

[SAK]

Originally Posted by zeedonk

All fair points. I understand the comments about bringing this on myself, but don't agree, but I will leave that there because I think reasonable minds can differ on that...


So let's change the facts a bit to the above quote. What if I (or you) contact a player who might otherwise collide with you (live or dead ball) and he turns around and pushes you away and yells "get your hands off me"....

Q1- if the ball is live or in play, what, if anything do you do? Anybody whacking here?

Q1(a) are you whacking if he has been a PIA during the game? How about if not?

Q2- if the ball is dead or not in play say you are reporting a time out, turn and a player is about to run you over getting to the huddle and you grab him to avoid a collision and he pushes you away and yells "get your hands off me"...? anybody whacking here?

I'm not saying I would in either case, but the discussion is interesting. A lot of things go into that decision on how to react....

One thing at at time:

Q1: I am not going to assess any Ts here as it is a situation that you put yourself in. If the player has been a problem or has not been a problem it is likely not going to happen again and there doesn't need to be any unnecessary attention brought to the situation where it looks like the ref touched a player. Everyone in the stands and the coaches can see that the intent was to prevent injury either to the official or the player and nothing can be gained by assessing a T.

On the other hand if you do assess a T (I believe that its a mistake as there is nothing unsporting here, just a player letting the official know that he/she does not want the contact) then you inserted yourself into the game and need to deal with the consequences. I would not be quick to assess a second one.

Q1(a): Again, not assessing a T even if player is a PIA. Again, why draw extra attention. If the player did not use any profanity and didn't address and did not do anything unsporting why punish the player and draw extra attention to an action that we are attempting to avoid. If you feel the need to assess a T to a PIA then find another reason.

Q2: Find a way to avoid the situation, take a step back forward, left or right but get out of the way of the player. You as an official know where the players are attempting to go. And generally I don't report the time out until the players are in the huddle. This gives coaches the full time allotted for the time out and keeps me out of harms way.

We are part of the game but no one comes to see us officiate, they come to see the players. No need to bring attention to us until absolutely necessary. One very good official once told me that assessing a T should improve the game. If assessing the T will not improve the game then don't assess the T. I find no way that a Tech in this situation will improve the game.

[zeedonk]

Originally Posted by SAK

I know that I even hate it when a player gives me a pat on the "rump" while saying "nice call ref."

Excellent point- I am not too fond of that either, especially when I think it's a smart assed response...
While I very seldom do that, I think I'll work on NOT doing it at all...