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Sun Jul 23, 2000, 10:10pm
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Summer league, NF rules with running clock except last two minutes of half. End of 1st quarter held ball, we have arrow, inbounding on baseline, don't get ball in before quarter ends. Arrow is erroneously switched and neither me or my assistant catch it. Start second quarter, team B with ball (we are always A!), we get called for a foul off the ball before ball is inbounded. My assistant says, "Hey wait, we should have arrow!" (good learning experience for us both - either or both of us should have said something right away when ball was not inbounded to make sure they got it right) Conference at table, ref determines A is right, A should have had arrow, table did not understand rules on changing arrow only after ball is inbounded. Resolution: no foul, team A's ball.
Is this acceptable from a pure NF rules standpoint (forget context, summer league with more relaxed setting and all of us there to learn). This situation is not listed as a correctable error, but ball has never been in play. Now, to make things more interesting, suppose team B is in double bonus (we foul early and often!), B1 shoots first free throw and makes it, and then A points out that A should have ball and arrow was in wrong position. What then? Correctable error? Clock has not started and ball has not been live yet. 
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Mon Jul 24, 2000, 12:07am
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By rule it is not correctable. Your foul counts.
However, I can prevent making the same mistake on the next throw-in. Assuming the FT did not end because of the foul, B would normally retain the arrow after the foul. Since we all now know that A should have the next throw in, I point the arrow to A. JC
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Mon Jul 24, 2000, 12:11am
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The way things were resolving before our protestation would have left us where we should have been, albeit for the wrong reasons. After the foul on A1, the arrow was switched back to A by the table and B was inbounding the ball off the foul. Remember that the table did not understand the rules on changing the arrow. Initial result (prior to our protest) was ball to B, foul on A1 and arrow to A, which is what really should have happened
 I think it was better that we taught the scorer and timer the rules on the arrow, but the end result that favored us was incorrect.So we got lucky in getting the ball back and foul cancelled, and learned one more lesson about being aware of everything happening on and around the court. Thanks for the input.
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Mon Jul 24, 2000, 10:53am
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quote: Ah -- here's the misunderstnding. The ball has been "in play" (made live) as soon as it is handed to the team for the throw in. By rule, this mistake cannot be corrected. (As a usual matter, though, officials will, umm, make another mistake and have an inadvertant whistle with the ball mistakenly given to the other team for a throw-in, if it's brough to their attention before the ball is touched on the court or a foul is committed. Note that I very carefully did not say that the officials ignored the rule book and just gave the ball back to the "correct" team.  )
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Mon Jul 24, 2000, 03:04pm
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This is one of those mistakes that we officials try to avoid because, as has been stated, the error is not correctable. Your officials tried to make up for their (table error) mistake. Actually the officials have to assume the table personel does not know when to change the arrow and be aware of this. Most officials check the table before inbounding the ball between quarters or half to avoid the PA being wrong. Once the ball is handed to a player the offficials by rule cannot correct the AP arrow. Play continues as though the AP arrow was right. Now the reality is that we make AP arrow corrections if discovered before anything major has happened and use the correctable error procedure, knowing full well we are not supported by the rules. But it is usually fair. The NF rule book leaves very little room for correcting officials mistakes see rule 2-10-1 thru 6. You got lucky and the officials did the fair thing, but the NF rule book won't support their decision. Have someone on your staff keep the AP arrow in your book at your bench and if the table gets it wrong. Go to the table before the ball is handed to a player and get the officials to correct the AP arrow before the ball becomes live (an inbound player controls).
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Mon Jul 24, 2000, 04:59pm
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I always keep a coin, chapstick, extra whistle, etc. with me during games to avoid just this type of situation. During the summer I use a rubber band on my wrist (look mom, no pockets), and I think it is most vital during the summer. You never know who or how young the person on the clock will be, and bottom line, a little preventive officiating makes a long hot night go a little easier..
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Mon Aug 21, 2000, 02:41pm
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Ingoring, for a moment, the foul, the arrow situation could be corrected until the ball is touched inbounds on the throw-in. By rule an alternating throw-in is due. So, if you blow the whistle before has occurred, it is still due unless other factors override it (technical foul, personal foul, violation, timeout, etc.)
If it is blown and it should have been the other teams chance, it should still be the other (correct) teams chance. Now, adding the foul to the scenario, the matter becomes more complicated and I'm not too sure what is correct. I don't believe that it can be corrected at that point. Technically, you have had a live ball foul and no provision allow for it to be canceled.
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Tue Aug 22, 2000, 10:17am
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quote: Actually, this is incorrect. The error is correctable until the ball becomes live. But the ball becomes live when it is handed to the in-bounder, not when it is touched in bounds. So if the protest comes in time before the in-bounder has possession, then correctable. Otherwise, not correctable. If I had been the ref, and the initial holler from the team A coach had come before the in-bounder touched it, even if I handed it off before we realized the roblem, I would count the error as correctable, since I should have been attentive enough to hear the coach before giving the player the ball. (Especially Hawks' Coach who any ref would be wise to heed the first time!) Of course, for the ref to pay enough attention to avoiid this inthe first place is great. Wish I were good enough to always do this!! Question: Most of the correctable errors are ref errors, not table errors. Table errors such as putting the score onto the board wrong, or putting it into the book wrong are correctable until the end of the game. Why couldn't this be a table error and thus correctable, if not anytime before the game is over, at least as long as other correctable errors?
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Tue Aug 22, 2000, 02:55pm
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quote: Actually, this is incorrect. Camron had it right. Case 6.3.1D
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Thu Aug 24, 2000, 01:21pm
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quote:Yes I see your point about Case 6.3.1D. But didn't you say up above that the rule is uncorrectable? Perhaps I didn't understand your point in your original post. I was applying the correctable errors rule strictly in terms of live ball/dead ball, clock starting and stopping and so forth. My interpretation is that when the ref handed the ball to the A team player to inbound (before the quarter ended), it became live. Then when the quarter ended, the ball became dead. Now when the ball is handed to B, it becomes live, so the situation is now past correctable. Also note what Jerry Baldwin says in the post above about it not being correctable once handed to the player. And actually this situation is not precisely the same as the case in the book. Since A did have a brief touch (this makes the ball live, remember) and then the quarter ended, and THEN the ball was handed to B. Okay, next question. If, after the foul the refs decide the arrow was wrong and they want to correct it, do they cancel the foul? After the foul, the error is not correctable, is it? So what happens to the arrow at this point?
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Thu Aug 24, 2000, 02:09pm
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quote:
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Thu Aug 24, 2000, 05:08pm
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quote: The difference is that this is not a "correctable error" situation and, as such, the rules on correctable errors do not apply in any way. Even if they did, the clock has to have started before any correctable error situation can expire. The number of live/dead ball periods is irrelavant if the clock has never started. The only dead ball to live ball transition that matters is the first one that occurs after the clock starts or with the clock running. There are many things that can be "fixed" by the rules that are not correctable errors. [This message has been edited by Camron Rust (edited August 24, 2000).]
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Fri Aug 25, 2000, 11:52am
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quote: Thanks for this explanation; I feel a little obnoxious to keep "arguing" here, but I still have more questions. I'm not disagreeing, but trying to understand. When you say,"It's correctable until the ball is touched in-bounds" does that apply to other types of mistakes as well, say putting the ball into play at the wrong spot, or suddenly realizing that this player has five fouls or something else? I hope the answer is yes! I have "fixed" (thanks Camron for this helpful word suggestion!) errors after handing the ball but-before-it-was-inbounds several times in my short career, but I always felt guilty thinking I shouldn't. Is the rule, then, that no ref mistakes are fixable after the next touch in-bounds, except for the Correctable Errors as in 2-10?
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Fri Aug 25, 2000, 03:18pm
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quote: That's generally true. Of course, if you "suddenly" realize that a player has five fouls once play has started, you can correct that at any dead ball.
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Fri Aug 25, 2000, 03:57pm
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quote: There is not really a direct rule that covers this. It can be deduced from the rules that should have applied to begin with. If you happen to blow the whistle before the ball inbounds, you have a dead ball. If team A was due an AP throwin, they are still due that throw-in until it has ended by being completed. By blowing the whistle while B has the ball on the throw-in, it is still the same AP opportunity and A should get the ball. If the ball is touched inbounds and you then blow the whistle, you have a team with control of the ball. You could apply 6-3-3e if you wish for the jump ball case but I think the reality is that the situation is more broad than just the jump ball case.
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