You Make The Call

[NoFear2020]

Thanks Snaqwells and BillyMac for getting me back into my NFHS rule book.
Rule 4-11-1 Continuous motion applies to a try or tap for field goals and free throws, but has no significance unless there is a foul by any defensive player during the interval which begins when the habitual throwing movement starts a try or with the touching on a tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight.
Rule 4-23-1 Guarding is the act of legally placing the body in the path of an offensive opponent. There is no minimum distance required between the guard and opponent, but the maximum is 6 feet when closely guarded. Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent. A player who extends an arm, shoulder, hip or let into the path of an opponent is not considered to have a legal position in contact occurs.
Rule 4-41-1 The act of shooting begins simultaneously with the start of the try or tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight, and includes the airborne shooter.
Rule 4-41-3 The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball.

[APG]

Not sure what point you're trying to get across there NoFear? Are you disagreeing with what Snaq said?

[Adam]

And nowhere does it say the defender has to be in that position before the shooting motion begins.

[Jeremy Hohn]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

NFHS, NCAA Men' and Women's, and FIBA: CHARGE!!


NBA/WNBA: Who the hell knows what the call would be.

I'm with Mark..

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Ok, first, I still maintain that B1 has LGP, but after watching it a little more closely, I agree he continued to slide to his right after A1 went airborne. There would have been no contact had he maintained the spot he held when A1 took off.

block, but I think it's close enough to give the official a pass.

I definitely wasn't criticizing the official's call. He had a split second to make a decision.

But with the luxury of watching it in slow motion I just can't see how anybody can still have a PC on this play.

[NoFear2020]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

And nowhere does it say the defender has to be in that position before the shooting motion begins.

Rule 4-23-1 Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent.

4-41-3 The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball.

So when the offensive player starts or gathers the ball s/he is considered to be shooting, the defensive player must be at the spot if not defensive foul.

[APG]

Originally Posted by NoFear2020

Rule 4-23-1 Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent.

4-41-3 The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball.

So when the offensive player starts or gathers the ball s/he is considered to be shooting, the defensive player must be at the spot if not defensive foul.

And still, nothing there says a a defender has to be in position before the player gathers the ball. 4-41-3 is only of importance when determining whether continuous motion will apply on a foul by a defensive player. Even in the NBA, which requires a defender to get to a legal guarding position earlier than NCAA/NF, they only require the player be there before the offensive player starts his upward motion.

[APG]

10.6.1 Situation A: B1 takes a certain spot on the court before A1 jumps in the air to catch a pass: (a) A1 lands on B1; or (b) B1 moves to a new spot while A1 is airborne. A1 lands on one foot and then charges in B1.

RULING: In (a) and (b), the foul is on A1. (4-23-5d)

[Adam]

Originally Posted by NoFear2020

Rule 4-23-1 Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent.

4-41-3 The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball.

So when the offensive player starts or gathers the ball s/he is considered to be shooting, the defensive player must be at the spot if not defensive foul.

So A1, moving quickly and taking long strides, gathers for a layup at around 25 feet away from the hoop. He gathers with both feet in the air, mid stride, lands on his right foot (at the three point line), takes one more stride with his left (just inside the free throw line) and launches off that left foot for a dunk. B1 got into position as A1 was midstrde between his right and left feet You're calling a block? You're using the wrong rule. The rule you quote (4-41-3) does not state when the defender must get to his spot, its only purpose is to determine whether a shot counts with a defensive foul before the ball is released.

APG's case play and the rule it notes (4-23-5) would be a great place to start.

[btaylor64]

Nice play. It's a block.

[Pantherdreams]

What contact there was: - did not disadvantage/impede the defense they were already on the way to the floor. - did not disadvantage/impede the offense, shot was made and offense trying to avoid contact with a falling object causes him to end up with an awkward landing not the contact it self.

Seems to me to be a clear no call LGP, responsibility for contact aside etc.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Seldom used. In fact, I've never seen it used, ever, in thirty years of officiating.

I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen it, including once myself. There were a few times when I thought I saw it, but thinking it isn't enough. One must be positive.

I believe the OP's video is a perfect example. The defender started falling back before the shooter even got there.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Nice play. It's a block.

Well color me shawked!

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Well color me shawked!

Simple. Can't slide to draw contact once player is airborne in HS and NCAA rules, right? Exactly what happens here. Contact disrupts the airborne player's natural motion or "rhythm" in attempting to score and causes him to go to the ground.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Seldom used. In fact, I've never seen it used, ever, in thirty years of officiating. But we have it in our "holster" if we need it.

I've used it once, in a 7th grade YMCA game, after a warning to player and coach, when the defender grunted and fell backwards as the dribbler got to within about 6 feet of the defender.