You Make The Call

[Adam]

Ok, first, I still maintain that B1 has LGP, but after watching it a little more closely, I agree he continued to slide to his right after A1 went airborne. There would have been no contact had he maintained the spot he held when A1 took off.

block, but I think it's close enough to give the official a pass.

[NoFear2020]

Thanks Snaqwells and BillyMac for getting me back into my NFHS rule book.
Rule 4-11-1 Continuous motion applies to a try or tap for field goals and free throws, but has no significance unless there is a foul by any defensive player during the interval which begins when the habitual throwing movement starts a try or with the touching on a tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight.
Rule 4-23-1 Guarding is the act of legally placing the body in the path of an offensive opponent. There is no minimum distance required between the guard and opponent, but the maximum is 6 feet when closely guarded. Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent. A player who extends an arm, shoulder, hip or let into the path of an opponent is not considered to have a legal position in contact occurs.
Rule 4-41-1 The act of shooting begins simultaneously with the start of the try or tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight, and includes the airborne shooter.
Rule 4-41-3 The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball.

[APG]

Not sure what point you're trying to get across there NoFear? Are you disagreeing with what Snaq said?

[Adam]

And nowhere does it say the defender has to be in that position before the shooting motion begins.

[NoFear2020]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

And nowhere does it say the defender has to be in that position before the shooting motion begins.

Rule 4-23-1 Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent.

4-41-3 The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball.

So when the offensive player starts or gathers the ball s/he is considered to be shooting, the defensive player must be at the spot if not defensive foul.

[APG]

Originally Posted by NoFear2020

Rule 4-23-1 Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent.

4-41-3 The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball.

So when the offensive player starts or gathers the ball s/he is considered to be shooting, the defensive player must be at the spot if not defensive foul.

And still, nothing there says a a defender has to be in position before the player gathers the ball. 4-41-3 is only of importance when determining whether continuous motion will apply on a foul by a defensive player. Even in the NBA, which requires a defender to get to a legal guarding position earlier than NCAA/NF, they only require the player be there before the offensive player starts his upward motion.

[APG]

10.6.1 Situation A: B1 takes a certain spot on the court before A1 jumps in the air to catch a pass: (a) A1 lands on B1; or (b) B1 moves to a new spot while A1 is airborne. A1 lands on one foot and then charges in B1.

RULING: In (a) and (b), the foul is on A1. (4-23-5d)

[Adam]

Originally Posted by NoFear2020

Rule 4-23-1 Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent.

4-41-3 The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball.

So when the offensive player starts or gathers the ball s/he is considered to be shooting, the defensive player must be at the spot if not defensive foul.

So A1, moving quickly and taking long strides, gathers for a layup at around 25 feet away from the hoop. He gathers with both feet in the air, mid stride, lands on his right foot (at the three point line), takes one more stride with his left (just inside the free throw line) and launches off that left foot for a dunk. B1 got into position as A1 was midstrde between his right and left feet You're calling a block? You're using the wrong rule. The rule you quote (4-41-3) does not state when the defender must get to his spot, its only purpose is to determine whether a shot counts with a defensive foul before the ball is released.

APG's case play and the rule it notes (4-23-5) would be a great place to start.

[btaylor64]

Nice play. It's a block.

[Pantherdreams]

What contact there was: - did not disadvantage/impede the defense they were already on the way to the floor. - did not disadvantage/impede the offense, shot was made and offense trying to avoid contact with a falling object causes him to end up with an awkward landing not the contact it self.

Seems to me to be a clear no call LGP, responsibility for contact aside etc.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Nice play. It's a block.

Well color me shawked!

[JugglingReferee]

No call from me. Great offensive move; inadequate defensive move.

[NoFear2020]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

So A1, moving quickly and taking long strides, gathers for a layup at around 25 feet away from the hoop. He gathers with both feet in the air, mid stride, lands on his right foot (at the three point line), takes one more stride with his left (just inside the free throw line) and launches off that left foot for a dunk. B1 got into position as A1 was midstrde between his right and left feet You're calling a block? You're using the wrong rule. The rule you quote (4-41-3) does not state when the defender must get to his spot, its only purpose is to determine whether a shot counts with a defensive foul before the ball is released.

APG's case play and the rule it notes (4-23-5) would be a great place to start.

YES I think you might have it know, although the strides in this particular play are a bit unrealistic but if someone where able to realize such a distance it would be legal.
Rule 4- 41 is trying to tell you when the shot has begun.
I have not received the NFHS 2011-12 Case Book.
What is APG?
NFHS Rule 4-23-5 speaks of guarding a moving opponent without the ball.

[APG]

Originally Posted by NoFear2020

YES I think you might have it know, although the strides in this particular play are a bit unrealistic but if someone where able to realize such a distance it would be legal.
Rule 4- 41 is trying to tell you when the shot has begun.
I have not received the NFHS 2011-12 Case Book.
What is APG?
NFHS Rule 4-23-5 speaks of guarding a moving opponent without the ball.

APG=short hand for my username.

Rule 4-41 tells us when the try begins, but that has nothing to do with whether a defender got a LGP in time. Knowing when the try begins is only important in determining if continuous motion will apply on a defensive foul.

Also guarding a moving opponent without the ball is the same as guarding a moving opponent with the ball with the only exception being that time and distance apply to a defender trying to gain LGP against the moving defender without the ball.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by NoFear2020

YES I think you might have it know, although the strides in this particular play are a bit unrealistic but if someone where able to realize such a distance it would be legal.
Rule 4- 41 is trying to tell you when the shot has begun.
I have not received the NFHS 2011-12 Case Book.
What is APG?
NFHS Rule 4-23-5 speaks of guarding a moving opponent without the ball.

The distances aren't that out of line, frankly. 6 foot strides for a fast moving player isn't unheard of.

Okay, "APG" = "AllPurposeGamer". He posted the case play, even quoted it so you don't need your book. Also, check out case play 10.6.1C, in particular the ruling portion, which states in part:

B1 is entitled to the position gained legally before A1 left the floor

You're right, I hadn't read the rule book today. It's 4-23-4b

If the opponent with the ball is airborne, the guard must have obtained legal position before the opponent left the floor.

Note that it doesn't say position must be gained before the shooting motion has begun; only that it must be gained before the opponent leaves the floor.