Caoches ~ Planting the Seed

[Blackhawk357]

Reading another thread reminded me of this one, thought I'd get your reactions.

HS Varsity Boys, regular season, 2-whistle game. In our pre-game confrence with coaches/captians I clearly asked the coaches specifically if they had any questions. Both said "no". Confrence over ~ warm-up preiod over ~ just prior to introductions.

Coach A calls us both over and asks: "How are you guys going to call the coaching box?"
I give my standard anwser :"Coach, it's in the book as a rule, that's how we call it. But, our top priority is the ball game on the floor."

Not good enough ~
Coach A: "I want a specific answer, last time we played these guys he was in MY box."
Me: "Coach, we'll handle it."

This really irritates me. That coach had every opprotunity to ask the question in the pre-game and refused. There is the seed, he obviously wants it to grow into a "T".

My next move is to walk directly to the other head coach and say: "Coach, they are asking for box inforcement already."
Coach B: "Why, are they out of it all the time?"
Me: "No coach, he dosen't want you coaching from his box"
Coach B: "That's crazy!"
Me: "Coach, all I'm saying is that we had that conversation on that side of the floor, and I'm not doing that without this side knowing about it. Have a good game."

The game went great, no box problems, but I wonder what the post-game converstaion was like. Really hope Hawks Coach weighs in on this one.

Who's got a better solution?
Blackhawk

Having a hard time spelling this morning!

[Edited by Blackhawk357 on Feb 14th, 2003 at 11:30 AM]

[stripes]

When I have a coach ask me a dumb question, just for the purpose of trying to get at us or work us I always tell him to come with me to the other bench and ask the question in front of the other coach. He's trying to get an advantage and doesn't want the other coach to know, so don't let him. I have had coaches try and take digs at their opponent when the opponent wasn't around, but act like scared pups in front of the other guy.

You can't stop the game to do it, but you can do it before the game if it occurs (sounds like your case) or after a TO. Very quick and easy. If the coach asks why, I always tell him that our conversations shouldn't be secret and the other guy ought to know what he is concerned about. Usually stops them in their tracks.

[moose69]

Here in Ontario it is now becoming an accepted mechanic to find out who the head coach is, and remind him that the coaches box is in effect(The confines of the teams bench)

TR

[gsf23]

I've never done that personally, talked to an official about another coach, but just to defend the coaches here a bit, if the officials in the previous game would have enforced the coaches box, then there would be no seed for this coach to try to plant.

[Blackhawk357]

Originally posted by gsf23
I've never done that personally, talked to an official about another coach, but just to defend the coaches here a bit, if the officials in the previous game would have enforced the coaches box, then there would be no seed for this coach to try to plant.

That is a great point!
Now that I think about it, I'd have loved to have a chance to chat with the crew that worked that match-up
last time around. But, in a more general scense, we still have to deal with the situation at hand.

stripes~
Do you ever have a coach say "No thanks, I'll stay here."
If that happens, Coach B still never gets the word.

Blackhawk

[Hawks Coach]

For those that are commenting on the specifics of the coaching box and laying it out for coaches in pregame, I look at this as just an example of a type of behavior. It really could be anything, such as "Watch their center, she tends to throw a lot of elbows if you aren't watching." The intent here wasn't to obtain clarification of enforcement of a rule, it was to put the ref in a certain mindset with relation to the other bench.

Not appropriate, period. I don't know if anybody has done that in any of my games, but I have never had a ref do what you did. I like what you did in going to the other coach - it keeps everyone on the same level. And if you knew at the time (rather than after you left the conversation) that the first coach was working you, you could have told him that you would appreciate him asking for those type of clarifications when you have both coaches together. Tell him that's what you meant by "any questions." Tell him that any further discussion of this type will involve both coaches.

gfs23 - I am not a big coaching box fan, as long as coaches stay within limits. It should be enforced as needed not necessarily as written. You come on my side of the court or obstruct the table's view, it's a problem. If you wander far and wide to yell at officials, it's a problem. Otherwise, it's kind of hard to see

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
For those that are commenting on the specifics of the coaching box and laying it out for coaches in pregame, I look at this as just an example of a type of behavior. It really could be anything, such as "Watch their center, she tends to throw a lot of elbows if you aren't watching." The intent here wasn't to obtain clarification of enforcement of a rule, it was to put the ref in a certain mindset with relation to the other bench.

Coach (barely audible): "Hey ref, watch #5 OK, he's throwing that elbow (or whatever)."

Me: "Hey thanks coach, #5 on white. I'll take care of it right away."

Coach: "White??!! No! Not white! Blue! #5 on blue!!"

Me: "Got it coach, white 5. I'll be looking."

This is guaranteed to work.

[gsf23]

HawksCoach--

Well, here in ND they don't use the coaching box so I have never really had any problem with it basically because I have to sit on my *** the whole game. Still, there are times when I would like to get up and roam the sideline a bit, just to help me think or work off some nervous energy.

[stripes]

Originally posted by Blackhawk357

stripes~
Do you ever have a coach say "No thanks, I'll stay here."
If that happens, Coach B still never gets the word.

Blackhawk

Yes, that has happened. If he doesn't want to say it in front of the other guy, I don't want to hear it. To be honest with you, I don't care if coach B gets the word because coach A is trying to work me. I'm trying to prevent that.

If he wants to be a pr*ck about it, he'll get no leeway from me that night (in the coaching box sitch--he had better *never* set foot outside the box if he wants the other coach watched that close--the knife cuts both ways)

[zebraman]

I never ask the coaches if they have questions anymore. Invariably, the questions they asked were things like:
How are you going to call "over the back".


How are you going to call "reaching in"?


How strict are you going to call the coaches box?


How tight are you going to call the handchecks?

Do like the military...don't ask, don't tell.

Z

[Hawks Coach]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Coach (barely audible): "Hey ref, watch #5 OK, he's throwing that elbow (or whatever)."

Me: "Hey thanks coach, #5 on white. I'll take care of it right away."

Coach: "White??!! No! Not white! Blue! #5 on blue!!"

Me: "Got it coach, white 5. I'll be looking."

This is guaranteed to work.

I like it - but of course, your talking about during the game, while I was referring to some pre-game set-up comment that the coach might make. Deal with the in-game stuff like any other comment you receive. But it is wrong for a coach to be giving you a "violations scouting report" on his opponent before a game.

By the way, not all refs are going to see everything, and you could do worse than to hear somebody point out some rough play in the post. You may not have been looking, and maybe it does need to be called. If I am going to tell you anything during a game, it will be on those lines - directed toward a repeated act by a player that I think is being ignored but shouldn't be.

[canuckrefguy]

The thread has diverted a bit from the coaches box to how much prodding you should take from a coach and when...

I always make a habit of, during the pre-game with the coaches to establish the box, and state that we're not going to be fanatical about it unless they become a pain in the a**. I wish them luck and then leave it at that. If they come up with questions, I answer/deflect as necessary. "Coach, we're going to try our best to call what's needed", in a positive tone, is a tool I use a lot in those situations. Make no promises, do not get roped into any specific rif-raf, and get out.

As for the other stuff, coaches that are inclined to "work" the officials (and not all of them are), will do it as far as they think they can get away with. It's part of our job to absorb what we think needs absorbing, to put up the stop sign when we feel we have to, and to apply "in one ear out the other" to the rest.

That ideal plateu with "unapproachable" on one side and "getting away with murder" on the other side can be a tricky place to find.

[Hawks Coach]

canuck
I would say that the thread deviated from the intial thrust of the question by focussing on the box rather than the action of the coach to influence the ref in pregame

Read the initial post - I don't think Blackhawk wanted advice on dealing with the box.

[canuckrefguy]

Hmmm, maybe ignore the first sentence of my post, then.

Or not. The second, long-winded part is more important anyway (at least it was to me, ha!)

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach


I like it - but of course, your talking about during the game, while I was referring to some pre-game set-up comment that the coach might make. Deal with the in-game stuff like any other comment you receive. But it is wrong for a coach to be giving you a "violations scouting report" on his opponent before a game.

Yeah, I know. Frankly, I don't discuss any pregame suggestions along the lines of "How ya gonna call..." or "I've noticed #5 has a tendency to..." If a coach asks me how I'm gonna call something I tell him to have a good game & walk away.

By the way, not all refs are going to see everything, and you could do worse than to hear somebody point out some rough play in the post. You may not have been looking, and maybe it does need to be called. If I am going to tell you anything during a game, it will be on those lines - directed toward a repeated act by a player that I think is being ignored but shouldn't be.

Absolutely, I agree 100%. My original post was mostly tongue in cheek, although I admit to having pulled the leg of a coach like this when I didn't think his complaint was valid. If a player or coach comes to me in a reasonable manner & requests I watch for something I'm completely open to suggestion: "Geeze, I haven't seen that but I'll be looking for it now. Thanks." And I will look for it and I will call it if I see it. Trouble is, as hard as I look I don't often see what they are asking me to see.