The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jun 10, 2000, 05:35pm
certified Hot Mom tester
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: only in my own mind, such as it is
Posts: 12,918
Question

There seemed to be a lot of interest regarding inbounding plays down below, so I thought I'd repost one that my buddy Camron Rust explained some time ago.

NF rules. Less than one minute to go in close game. A1 to inbound on the baseline on spot throw-in (clock stopped). He inbounds to A2 who is standing with one foot on the sideline. Administering official chops the clock when the ball is touched by A2, then the other official immediately blows his whistle because A2 is touching OOB. Two seconds have run off the clock.

Should the officials reset the clock or not?

[This message has been edited by Mark Padgett (edited June 10, 2000).]
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jun 11, 2000, 02:08am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 354
Send a message via AIM to Jeremy Hohn Send a message via Yahoo to Jeremy Hohn
Smile

Mark,

I got a 50-50 shot on this one, so I'll have to go to yes. This is a situation where the officials have definite knowledge of the fact that no time should have run off the clock. In federation, we allow for lag time, but only after the clock has legally started. (the timer stopping the clock after it has legally run) I say put it back on, but I'm not completely sure.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jun 11, 2000, 06:09pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 156
Post

I say the clock has to be reset. It shouldn't start until the ball is touched legally in bounds, which it wasn't, so it has to be reset.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jun 11, 2000, 07:46pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 4,801
Post

I remember when this situation first came out last year on a different board, and then moved here, methinks. I believe something went along with this as to where B's throw-in would be.

As a timer, I am sticking with my original answer - the time should be put back on the clock.

Here are my three ways of looking at the situation:

(1) The official who is covering A2 is in a better position to determine the inbounds/oob status of A2. This official can tell if A2 caught the ball, then stepped out; stepped out, then caught it; etc.

(2) If a timer is looking at the administering official, and getting ready for time to be chopped in (when the clock is stopped), and a whistle blows, the timer may start the clock. (I've actually had this happen to me at the end of a period in a JV game.) If you go with this scenario, it is timer error, and at least one second must be put back on the clock.

(3) The rules covering this situation lead me to believe that the clock should be reset.

5-9-4 "The clock shall be started when the ball touches . . . a player on the court [not necessarily inbounds - this was big the last time this came up] after it is released by the thrower."

5-8-1c "Time-out occurs and the clock, if running, shall be stopped when an official signals a violation [such as OOB]."

Now, when A2 touches the ball, these two events (start and stop clock) occur simultaneously. Therefore, no time should be run off the clock.


[This message has been edited by Mark Dexter (edited June 11, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Mark Dexter (edited June 11, 2000).]
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 12, 2000, 01:38pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 35
Post

Given that the officiating team has definite knowledge about how much time was run off the clock (exactly zero), then it makes sense to reset the clock.

OK Mr. Padgett - is there something that we are missing?

David
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 12, 2000, 01:54pm
certified Hot Mom tester
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: only in my own mind, such as it is
Posts: 12,918
Wink

quote:
Originally posted by David Clausi:
Given that the officiating team has definite knowledge about how much time was run off the clock (exactly zero), then it makes sense to reset the clock.

OK Mr. Padgett - is there something that we are missing?

David



Here's a hint that may or may not help - depending on what you think the answer should be.

The administering official chopping the clock when the ball is touched (either inbound or OOB) and the other official blowing his whistle because he sees the ball being touched OOB are two separate, independent acts.


Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 12, 2000, 02:08pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 12,260
Post

The conclusion that I came to after studying this situation (NF rules) is that the time that ran off the clock is valid (provided it stopped within 1 second of the whistle).

The timer, according to 5-9-1, is to start the clock when the official chops/signals time-in. The timer is futher authorized to start the clock in a listed set of cirmumstances if the official fails to signal.

The timer is to stop the clock within one second (lag time) of a whistle.

In this case, the timer made no error. The clock was started as instructed by Official-1 (O1) and stopped as instructed by Official-2 (O2). Since no error was made, no time can be added.

Some will say that O1 should have never chopped time in, however, O1 does not have the resopnsibility of all boundary lines on the court and can not be expected to know when A2 is contacting a line that O2 is covering. Each official is performing their duties as prescribed. They have made no error.

Since the timer made no error (based on the fact that the clock was started and stopped as signaled) and the officials made no error (based on the fact that each signaled as their coverage and responsibilities dictated) the brief amount of time that ran off the clock shoud not be changed.

If you wish to discuss NCAA or NBA situations, I would have the opposite opinion in that the time should be returned to the original time since neither of these rulesets have a lagtime provision.

[This message has been edited by Camron Rust (edited June 12, 2000).]
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 12, 2000, 02:17pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 2,217
Post

Reading Mark Dexter's post and mark Padgett's latest, it really eems that you could decide to factor in reaction time. To present a slightly different scenario, if a player catches the ball headed toward the sideline, does a one-two stop as he catches the ball, first foot in, second out, some time should go off the clock and you should factor in reaction time. The case that Mark P has set up is not far removed from this scenario. In theory you could apply the reaction time rule, since in both cases the same thing has basically happened. However, in Mark P's scenario you know that the violation occurred simultaneously with the clock start and the clock should not really start. My personal opinion is that you should reset the clock. I also think this is an easier call to sell to both coaches and teams (hard for a coach to argue that time should run off when the player caught the ball OOB), and seems inherently "fair" based on the spirit of the rules. But I will defer to the experts, because I frequently find there is a precedent, case, camp lecture, or something else out there somewhere that deals with this differently than I would using my sense of what should happen.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 12, 2000, 03:36pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Bloomington, IL
Posts: 1,319
Post

I believe as an official I would look at the circumstances to see if I would put the time back on the clock, while no single error occured, a collection of circumstances caused time to come off the clock when it should not have run. If a team is down by three or less and that second could be vital to the outcome of a shot, I would award the time. I have been taught as an official that we are not to go by the letter of the rule all the time but we should go by the spirit of the rule. (If we went by the letter of the rule, we would call a lot more fouls). While no one could be blamed for doing their job, no one on the court does his/her job independent of anyone else and the time should go back on the clock. As HawksCoach said, easier sell for the officials. Refs conferance, come back out and tell coaches, one second goes back on the clock if it would really matter.

Just my opinion, shoot at will! :-)
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 12, 2000, 04:44pm
certified Hot Mom tester
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: only in my own mind, such as it is
Posts: 12,918
Lightbulb

Camron made this same point once before and it seemed to be accepted.

Here's another monkey wrench to throw into the mix. Isn't it a violation if two offensive players are standing OOB on a spot throw-in? Does it make any difference if the inbounder is on the endline and the other player is on the sideline? Should the violation have been called as soon as the ball was at the disposal of A1?
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 13, 2000, 12:15am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 2,217
Post

This is an important point. The original statement of the situation said "He inbounds to A2 who is standing with one foot on the sideline." If by this you mean that at time of release, A2 was already standing with one foot on the sideline (as opposed to being there when he catches the ball), then the violation should be called for both being OOB. That would eliminate any possibility of a clock start (if you are of the philosophy that the clock should ahve been allowed to start) and also change the spot of the throw-in to the baseline, which would have an impact on the next play, especially if A was on their own defensive baseline inbounding against a press and B needs a quick score to tie or win.

Mark P making us think again!
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 13, 2000, 02:28pm
certified Hot Mom tester
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: only in my own mind, such as it is
Posts: 12,918
Question

quote:
Originally posted by Hawks Coach:
If by this you mean that at time of release, A2 was already standing with one foot on the sideline (as opposed to being there when he catches the ball), then the violation should be called for both being OOB. Mark P making us think again!


If A2 was OOB all the time, would the violation occur on the release of the ball by A1 or when it was at his disposal?

As to making you think - I apologize
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 13, 2000, 03:41pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 2,217
Post

No rule book in hand, but my thought from my understanding of the rules is as follows:

The violation occurs as soon as you have A2 OOB and A1 has ball at disposal preparing to inbound. If A2 goes OOB after ball at disposal but before inbounds play, the violation should be blown immediately when A2 goes OOB. If A2 is OOB prior to ball at disposal and remains there, then the violation would occur as soon as the ball is at disposal of A1.

However, it seems to me that perhaps the ball should not be placed at disposal of A1 with A2 OOB. I think the officials look bad in that circumstance. I can see where it could occur if the trail gives the ball to A1 and the lead sees A2 OOB. But it still seems that this type of violation could be prevented and should not occur.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 13, 2000, 03:48pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 2,217
Post

An addendum to my comments. It does depend on whether it is a designated spot throw-in or if it is after a made basket. After basket, there is no violation unless the ball is inbounded with a second player OOB. A second player may be OOB on the baseline, as long as only one player is OOB when the ball is inbounded. Therefore, after a made basket, the violation should occur when the ball is inbounded.

But on designated spot, I believe that the presence of a second player OOB is a violation. In tht situation, the violation is at the moment A2 goes OOB if A1 has ball at disposal on spot throw-in, or when ball at disposal of A1 if A2 is already OOB.
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 13, 2000, 06:19pm
certified Hot Mom tester
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: only in my own mind, such as it is
Posts: 12,918
Smile

quote:
Originally posted by Hawks Coach:
An addendum to my comments. It does depend on whether it is a designated spot throw-in or if it is after a made basket. After basket, there is no violation unless the ball is inbounded with a second player OOB. A second player may be OOB on the baseline, as long as only one player is OOB when the ball is inbounded. Therefore, after a made basket, the violation should occur when the ball is inbounded.

But on designated spot, I believe that the presence of a second player OOB is a violation. In tht situation, the violation is at the moment A2 goes OOB if A1 has ball at disposal on spot throw-in, or when ball at disposal of A1 if A2 is already OOB.




Just to be my normal nit-picky self, you can have two (or more) offensive players OOB during a throw-in following a "made or awarded score" (same with running the endline), not just a made basket. Let's not forget those goaltending calls in 4th grade

Usually on a spot throw-in, if team A has two players OOB, I will say to one prior to administering, something like, "Is that where you really want to stand?" If they don't "get it", after a beat or two, I hand (or bounce) the ball to A! then blow the whistle. If the coach complains, I tell him his player got fair warning. Of course when I do lower grades, I do tell them not to stand OOB.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:40pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1