Constant Debate - Vertical Plane

[NCHSAA]

I am seeing more and more of this move coming down from the NBA to the college and high school ranks. Are yall seeing the same?

Here's the debate:

A1 pump fakes and B2 bites on the fake and jumps forward. A1 then attempts a shot and jumps into B2 who is airborne. A foul is called on B2 which sends A1 to the line.

A lot of guys in my local association agree with this foul on the defense even though the offensive player created contact also, if not first. My take is that both are at fault, the defense was not within their vertical plane/LGP, and the offensive player jumped forward into the defense trying to get the call. I am alright with a foul if the offensive player jumped straight up, or even slightly forward (some players jump straight up and some jump 3 feet forward on their jumpshots).

Anyone agree or am I alone here?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by NCHSAA

I am seeing more and more of this move coming down from the NBA to the college and high school ranks. Are yall seeing the same?

Here's the debate:

A1 pump fakes and B2 bites on the fake and jumps forward. A1 then attempts a shot and jumps into B2 who is airborne. A foul is called on B2 which sends A1 to the line.

A lot of guys in my local association agree with this foul on the defense even though the offensive player created contact also, if not first. My take is that both are at fault, the defense was not within their vertical plane, and the offensive player jumped forward into the defense trying to get the call. I am alright with a foul if the offensive player jumped straight up, or even slightly forward (some players jump straight up and some jump 3 feet forward on their jumpshots).

Anyone agree or am I alone here?

IF B1 would have landed short of A1, then A1 is responsible for the contact. No call (or, I suppose a potential PC foul -- or, just maybe, A1 is taunting B1 by landing on him). If B1 would have landed on A1 anyway, then the foul is on B1.

[Camron Rust]

If B1 is moving towards A1 at the time of contact (doesn't have LGP), it doesn't really matter what A1 did short of extending an arm to create contact or something intentional. I don't care if A1's shoulder is lowered or if A1 steps into B1. B1 already made the mistake by jumping towards A1. B1 only gets to play defense legally and moving towards the opponent at the time of contact is not legal defense.

Now, if B1 was going to completely and clearly miss A1 and A1 goes out of their way to make sure there is contact, we have a different story.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I don't care if A1's shoulder is lowered or if A1 steps into B1. B1 already made the mistake by jumping towards A1.

That "lowering the shoulder" is another myth we have to battle.

[APG]

If the defender is moving towards the opponent, then he's going to be responsible for the contact and get the foul 90+ percent of the time. The only time you should consider going offensive in this situation is if the offensive player does something overt...leads with an elbow, foot, or something non basketball related. Also if the defensive player jumps off clear to the side and would have avoided the offensive player were it not for the angle in which he jumped, one could also go offensive foul here.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by NCHSAA

I am seeing more and more of this move coming down from the NBA to the college and high school ranks. Are yall seeing the same?

Here's the debate:

A1 pump fakes and B2 bites on the fake and jumps forward. A1 then attempts a shot and jumps into B2 who is airborne. A foul is called on B2 which sends A1 to the line.

A lot of guys in my local association agree with this foul on the defense even though the offensive player created contact also, if not first. My take is that both are at fault, the defense was not within their vertical plane, and the offensive player jumped forward into the defense trying to get the call. I am alright with a foul if the offensive player jumped straight up, or even slightly forward (some players jump straight up and some jump 3 feet forward on their jumpshots).

Anyone agree or am I alone here?

Do you look at what the rule book says about a situation before you post it?

In this play, the rule is clear.

4-23-3c
After the initial legal guarding position is obtained:
The guard may move laterally or obliquely to maintain position, provided it is not toward the opponent when contact occurs.

If the defender is moving toward the opponent with the ball when the contact occurs, the foul is on the defender. Who initiated the contact is of no consequence, by rule.

The shooter can jump 10 feet forward if he chooses to. It's not a foul unless the contact is against a defender with legal position.

[NCHSAA]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Do you look at what the rule book says about a situation before you post it?
In this play, the rule is clear.

4-23-3c
After the initial legal guarding position is obtained:
The guard may move laterally or obliquely to maintain position, provided it is not toward the opponent when contact occurs.

If the defender is moving toward the opponent with the ball when the contact occurs, the foul is on the defender. Who initiated the contact is of no consequence, by rule.

The shooter can jump 10 feet forward if he chooses to. It's not a foul unless the contact is against a defender with legal position.

No can't say that I do ! I can see the call if it is a regular shot, but a "heev ho" where the offensive player is turned and the contact is on the shoulder, I cannot. Dwayne Wade had a couple of plays like this that I can think of, where he would get the defender to jump forward then he would turn sideways and jump into the defender just to cause the contact, this is the type situation I am trying to describe.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by NCHSAA

No can't say that I do ! I can see the call if it is a regular shot, but a "heev ho" where the offensive player is turned and the contact is on the shoulder, I cannot. Dwayne Wade had a couple of plays like this that I can think of, where he would get the defender to jump forward then he would turn sideways and jump into the defender just to cause the contact, this is the type situation I am trying to describe.

Where in the OP did you say you were talking about a "heev ho?"

Is contact on a shooter's shoulder normally a foul?

Why would that make a difference?

[NCHSAA]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Where in the OP did you say you were talking about a "heev ho?"

Is contact on a shooter's shoulder normally a foul?

Why would that make a difference?

Where in the OP did you say you were talking about a "heev ho?"

"offensive player created contact also, if not first"///"offensive player jumped forward into the defense trying to get the call"

Is contact on a shooter's shoulder normally a foul?

Yes, but I like the term normally

[APG]

Again, if a defensive player is moving towards an offensive player, the burden is on the defense...even if the offensive player jumps towards the defender. This is no different than say a dribbler moving towards a defender who is moving forward toward him. This doesn't give the offensive player carte blanche to do whatever because you can still go offensive if it's clear the defender jumps clear to the side offensive player or he does something overt (leads with an elbow, foot, or anything else non basketball related).

[Adam]

There's nothing in the rules which prevents a player from bracing for contact; even if that player is also trying to shoot.

[twocentsworth]

if defender has LGP = no foul on defender.
if defender does not have LGP (either never had it or has not maintained it) = foul on defender.

as officials, the more we break things down to "keep it simple", the more accurate we become.

[ontheway]

IVERSON does it all the time he jumps anyway he can into defenders and i personally know guys who wont give him the call if a defender is at fault hes at fault its pretty clear

[cmcramer]

Same play I posted years ago. Foul on defense. Thank you BktBallRef and others who posted the rule and supported it:

"In this play, the rule is clear.

4-23-3c
After the initial legal guarding position is obtained:
The guard may move laterally or obliquely to maintain position, provided it is not toward the opponent when contact occurs."

Up and Under Move

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by ontheway

IVERSON does it all the time he jumps anyway he can into defenders and i personally know guys who wont give him the call if a defender is at fault hes at fault its pretty clear

"Does it all the time"? When's the last time anybody has seen AI play? LOL