Situations from last night.

I had two situations in games last night that I am not sure we handled correctly.

1) Boys Var, 3 minutes left in the fourth quarter of a 30-40 point game. A1(#30) comes out of a time out and I notice he has blood on his jersey, so I tell the coach that they need to take care of it. He tries to clean it off with some saline but it doesn't come off. He ask if he could switch the kids jersey to which I say that he can but if they don't have an extra and he has to switch with a player that has already been in the game it will be a T. Just looking for clarification on this I think I know but not sure.

2) Boys Var 2nd game, last seconds of first quarter. A1 gets ball in middle of lane and goes up to attempt a shot, before he releases the ball the horn goes off. As the trail I am waiving off the shot immediately after the horn sounds. Underneath the basket my partner is calling a foul on B1 and counting the basket for A1(he wasn't paying attention to the clock because it was my call on the last shot). I go over to him and tell him that the shot wasn't released before the horn so the basket doesn't count. Now I am expecting to be shooting two free throws with the lane cleared but my partner says that the period has ended so there was no foul. My question is if the shot had counted we would have counted the basket and shot one, so why didn't my partner waive off the foul and which one of us is correct?

I have my own opinions on these but want to see what everyon else thinks, Thanks.

[RookieDude]

originally posted by JerryBlum
so why didn't my partner waive off the foul and which one of us is correct?

If you mean...why did my partner wave off the foul...it could be that he had a foul on an airborne shooter. In other words, the foul was after the shot was released and before the player hit the ground. Since you told him time ran out before the shot, the foul would have happened after time expired also.

I think I know but not sure.

I have found it better to not call anything unless you are absolutely sure of the particular ruling.
It's better to "miss a call", than call something and enforce an incorrect penalty. IMO

Dude





[Edited by RookieDude on Jan 14th, 2003 at 09:24 AM]

[williebfree]

Originally posted by Jerry Blum

1) Boys Var, 3 minutes left in the fourth quarter of a 30-40 point game. A1(#30) comes out of a time out and I notice he has blood on his jersey, so I tell the coach that they need to take care of it. He tries to clean it off with some saline but it doesn't come off. He ask if he could switch the kids jersey to which I say that he can but if they don't have an extra and he has to switch with a player that has already been in the game it will be a T. Just looking for clarification on this I think I know but not sure.

Dealing with first situation:
NFHS 3.2.2 Situation E
Team A properly submits its team member list and designates its five starters as required at least 10 minutes before the scheduled start of the game. Anytime thereafter, either before the game starts or during the game, the coach asks the scorer to change a number in the scorebook: (a) so it corresponds to what the team member is wearing; (b) because a player’s shirt has excessive blood on it; or (c) because a player’s shirt is torn. Ruling: In (a), a technical foul is charged to Team A. In (b) and (c), the shirt is changed and the number change made in the scorebook without any penalty.

Not a T unless the new jersey is a previously "played" (another player entered game with it)... Smart coaches (oxymoron )should carry at least one extra jersey.

[LarryS]

Don't have my rule book with me at work, so I'm not sure about the T. However, the rule does say "excessive" blood? Also, if the blood was not on the jersey at the start of the game (getting at the jersey having a stain) and if the player did not have a fresh bandage somewhere, then you should have a blood issue with at least one other player...had to come from someone.

After the clean-up attempt with the saline, was the blood still excessive? After the clean-up, what would have been the risk of letting him play with that jersey? That is a serious question, not rhetorical. Would you still have the risk of contamination to other players? Could you deem the blood was no longer excessive and finish the game?

Just wondering.

[mick]

Originally posted by RookieDude
Since you told him time ran out before the shot, the foul would have happened after time expired also.

Dude,
That's a possibility.
But it's also possible for the foul to have occured before the horn while A1 was making the habitual motion.
mick

[Hawks Coach]

Originally posted by williebfree
Dealing with first situation:
NFHS 3.2.2 Situation E
Team A properly submits its team member list and designates its five starters as required at least 10 minutes before the scheduled start of the game. Anytime thereafter, either before the game starts or during the game, the coach asks the scorer to change a number in the scorebook: (a) so it corresponds to what the team member is wearing; (b) because a player’s shirt has excessive blood on it; or (c) because a player’s shirt is torn. Ruling: In (a), a technical foul is charged to Team A. In (b) and (c), the shirt is changed and the number change made in the scorebook without any penalty.

Not a T unless the new jersey is a previously "played" (another player entered game with it)... Smart coaches (oxymoron )should carry at least one extra jersey. [/B]

Not clear why you differentiate between a new jersey and an existing player's jersey being the replacement. This case does not specify that only the jersey with the blood on it is subject to this rule. We are changing jerseys in the book because a player's jersey has excessive blood on it. The reason that A1 is going to wear A2's jersey is that A1 has excessive blood on his jersey.

By extension, if we switch these two back and forth the rest of the game, alerting the official each time what is being done and why, it is not clear that this is a violation of that case either.

[RookieDude]

Originally posted by mick

Dude,
That's a possibility.
But it's also possible for the foul to have occured before the horn while A1 was making the habitual motion.
mick

mick...you are absolutely correct!
I was just giving Jerry another possible scenario...since I am sure your scenario is what he thinks happened.

BTW, mick, how do you like my philosophy on "not calling a violation", unless you know how to administer the penalty?

Dude

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Absolutely no T; I don't care who's jersey he wears.

First of all the blood must be excessive - it can be transferred to someone else if they touch it (not lick it or chew on it but transferable by contact). Adding saline may well make the blood more tranferable. If it didn't wash off, perhaps it wasn't transferable to begin with?

If the jersey does need to be changed then I'm gonna let the coach make any change he wants without penalty. Why would I penalize the team/player/coach for someone else's blood on his jersey? No one has done anything wrong. We're just going to correct a safety issue - get rid of the blood. And if the book has to make some adjustments then so be it. The player shouldn't wear various/multiple jerseys - just one change. No T.

As Larry pointed out, you still need to find the bleeder/source.

As for the foul, you need to ascertain when it happened in relation to the horn. Perhaps the shot didn't get off because of the foul ==> shoot two. Perhaps it was a trivial foul that didn't really affect getting the shot off ==> forget it and just say end of quarter.

[kmref]

If the ball was not released before the horn you can't count the basket. If the foul was determined that it was on the airborne shooter you would shoot two shots. If the foul was prior to the player becoming an airborne shooter then it would be a common foul with bonus shots if the bonus was in effect.

From the responses on the the first situation I'm still not clear on exactly what is the correct way to handle this. Since our game was a blow out we discussed the issue with the coaches and neither had a problem with the switching of the jerseys so we went on without any problem.

Second situation, I have a better idea of what I think should have been done. I think that we really should have shot two with the lane cleared whether the foul happened before or after the horn, because A1 was an airborne shooter the whole time. Not sure if I read this on the board or in the rule book so I don't have a reference but in a similar situation where the shot is released, horn sounds and then A1(shooter) gets fouled after the horn before he returns to the floor we would still call that foul correct? Isn't this the same type of situation except that the ball was released after the horn?

[kmref]

Perfect!

That's why you get to do 2 varsity games in a day. Good job!

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Jerry Blum
I had two situations in games last night that I am not sure we handled correctly.

1) Boys Var, 3 minutes left in the fourth quarter of a 30-40 point game. A1(#30) comes out of a time out and I notice he has blood on his jersey, so I tell the coach that they need to take care of it. He tries to clean it off with some saline but it doesn't come off. He ask if he could switch the kids jersey to which I say that he can but if they don't have an extra and he has to switch with a player that has already been in the game it will be a T. Just looking for clarification on this I think I know but not sure.

There's no T for changing jerseys in this situation. It dopesn't matter whether the jersey has been played in or not. Now, if the kid who had his jersey taken away comes into the game, we have a different story.

2) Boys Var 2nd game, last seconds of first quarter. A1 gets ball in middle of lane and goes up to attempt a shot, before he releases the ball the horn goes off. As the trail I am waiving off the shot immediately after the horn sounds. Underneath the basket my partner is calling a foul on B1 and counting the basket for A1(he wasn't paying attention to the clock because it was my call on the last shot). I go over to him and tell him that the shot wasn't released before the horn so the basket doesn't count. Now I am expecting to be shooting two free throws with the lane cleared but my partner says that the period has ended so there was no foul. My question is if the shot had counted we would have counted the basket and shot one, so why didn't my partner waive off the foul and which one of us is correct?

If the shooter is not airborne and is fouled before the horn, shoot 2. If the shooter is airborne, he gets 2 shots, no matter when he was fouled, before or after the horn.

[mick]

Originally posted by RookieDude

BTW, mick, how do you like my philosophy on "not calling a violation", unless you know how to administer the penalty?

Dude

I have found it better to not call anything unless you are absolutely sure of the particular ruling.
It's better to "miss a call", than call something and enforce an incorrect penalty. IMO

Dude

Dude,
When we miss a "good call" purposely we have become a coach or a fan. It's an easy out to say "Didn't see it", as opposed to "Didn't know what to do about it cuz I failed to study my books enough." Not making the call is "safe". But If we wanted safe, we wouldn't put on the stripes.

A new official may call a foul, or violation, and not be able to explain it.

I once called a multiple foul on an air-borne shooter and awarded 4 shots. When I reported it, I probably called it a double foul. Wasn't questioned by Coach or fans. (Knew the application, but not the penalty.)

I once called a T on a player that left the court. (Knew the penalty, but not the application.)

Unfortunately, I have always learned more thoroughly by correcting my mistakes, than I have learned by being correct. Embarassment and self-deprecation are pretty good teachers.

Are we more inclined to look for answers when we are safe, or when we are sorry?

mick

[Hawks Coach]

Great summary Tony.

[Hawks Coach]

Originally posted by mick

I once called a T on a player that left the court. (Knew the penalty, but not the application.)

What are you saying here Mick? Usually I follow you, but you completely lost me here. Are you saying because the player was off the court he was bench personnel, so you called a player technical on a player who had appropriately already left the court and become bench personnel? Either way, you can still call the tech, it's just a different type of tech, which I know that you know. But your statement as it stands is hard to figure out.