Just wondering

[112448]

Hawks Coach -

As always, I couldn't agree with you more.

As to the "tagging-up" references, I don't think that has been well addressed in this thread at all, but is worth mentioning.

I do agree with Rut to a certain extent, that advantage/disadvantage, north-south v. east-west, and the ability of the players should have an impact on the "hand-checking" call, BUT with that said, i do think "tagging" is an aspect of the game that must be addressed early.

here's why...player a2 is constantly being tagged by b2 (i.e., b2 touches the hip, drops the hand, touches the hip, drops the hand, touches the hip, drops the hand) while he/she is dribbling up court.

at some point a2 gets annoyed/upset/frustrated with the constant "tagging" and begins to swat the defenders arm away. the defender continues to "tag."

now a2, extremely frustrated, uses a forearm or elbow to displace and clear away from b2...

what do you do now? do you call an offensive foul for the big-time displacement? do you call the hand-check that you should have called 5-seconds ago (thus preventing the displacement)? do you have a no call?

For those of you who didn't see it, a similar situation happened in the first half of the Louisville-Kentucky game last week.

My point is this...displacement and ad/disad are keys, but we need to do a better job of recognizing and calling the "tags" because if we don't, we're often left with a situation that is much worse.

Jake

[Jake80]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by williebfree
[B]Jake80


How was the "game flow"? Did they do a pre-game conference with that Captians, coaches, table....


In my opinion the "game flow" was like molasses. The visiting team was clearly not prepared for the type of game that was being called. Once the visitors caught on it was hack city. Play in the post was relatively rough with displacement by both offense and defensive players. It was not a thing of beauty to behold by the fans.

There was a pregame with coaches and captains. Couldn't say what was said. As I said, the table messed up the arrow to start the second half. The score and foul counts were not always correct which also contributed to slowing the game down.

[Jake80]

Originally posted by mick

Jake80,
You may have run into a game where the new guys actually got a chance to work their first varsity game.
mick

You may be right Mick. I had considered that possibility.
However, there was a small factor that changed my mind. I arrived a little early for the boys game in time to observe the end of the girls game. After the game I see one of the game officials come out of the locker room and sit next to a school official. School official's daughter is one of the stars of the team. Daughter comes out of the dressing room and game official gives her a high five. Gave the appearance of impropriety. That had something to do with the "ole boys network" comment.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by MN 3 Sport Ref
I have the luxury (or headache) of working games in all 5 of these classes. [snip] It is my firm opinion that each of these games cannot be called the same. We were complimented after the game on how we let contact that did not affect the play go and called the pertinent disadvantage.

MN,

I am going to disagree with the italicized portion of this quote, but only in one respect. I think each level game should be called exactly the same. And it should be called exactly as you describe: "let contact that did not affect the play go and call the pertinent disadvantage." That's how every game should be called.

In lower level games, it will take less contact to create a disadvantage; so you may have more fouls in those games. But if the players can play through slight contact -- at whatever level -- then you let it go. If there is contact that gives an unfair advantage, call a foul. Otherwise, play on. This can be applied in 5th/6th grade games as well as college varsity.

Just my opinion,

Chuck

[MN 3 Sport Ref]

Chuck:

I think we are pretty much on the same page here. My saying that each game couldn't be called the same refered to the amount of contact that could/should/would be considered to not gain an advantage/disadvantage. Thus in retrospective these games are called the same in context to the skill level.

Marshall

[ChuckElias]

MN, I agree that we agree I merely wanted to point out that although the number of whistles may increase at lower level games, the basic philosophy remains the same at all levels. If they can play, let 'em. If they can't play through it, blow the whistle.

Chuck

[ChuckElias]

I know that this is a guideline that is used in the pro game, but it has helped me a lot in my HS and college games. A handcheck becomes a foul, anywhere on the floor, if the ballhandler's speed, balance, or quickness are altered. If the ballhandler is slowed down by the defender, or if the shooter is turned and has to adjust his balance, or if the dribbler's first step is impeded; these are fouls.

It all still comes down to judgment, but I think the "SBQ" guideline makes it a little less individualized and gives the official something concrete to look for other than a hand on the ballhandler. Look for those 3 things and if one is affected, then blow the whistle.

Just something to think about.

[112448]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
I know that this is a guideline that is used in the pro game, but it has helped me a lot in my HS and college games. A handcheck becomes a foul, anywhere on the floor, if the ballhandler's speed, balance, or quickness are altered. If the ballhandler is slowed down by the defender, or if the shooter is turned and has to adjust his balance, or if the dribbler's first step is impeded; these are fouls.

It all still comes down to judgment, but I think the "SBQ" guideline makes it a little less individualized and gives the official something concrete to look for other than a hand on the ballhandler. Look for those 3 things and if one is affected, then blow the whistle.

Just something to think about.

Chuck

Great stuff. I first heard that at a camp this summer and I can't tell you how much those three words have helped my game. BTW - You can about think speed, quickness, and balance as it pertains to all contact, not just handchecking with the ball handler. E.g., think about balance when 2 big post players are going at each other.

Jake

[mick]

All good officials should call the same game.
Teams and coaches should adjust, not the officials.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by mick
All good officials should call the same game.
Teams and coaches should adjust, not the officials.

Amen to that- on anything that you call,whether it's 3 seconds,contact under the board,etc,etc. If you're consistent in your calls at both ends,nobody should ever have a complaint about the officiating.

[MN 3 Sport Ref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Amen to that- on anything that you call,whether it's 3 seconds,contact under the board,etc,etc. If you're consistent in your calls at both ends,nobody should ever have a complaint about the officiating.

I totally agree w/ the consistancy aspect of the game. However are we trying to say here that the amount of contact that causes a 9th grader to miss a shot and is called a foul should be a foul at the college level??? I don't see one getting many assignments after a couple of those calls. Do we call the travel in a varsity HS game when the player slides the pivot foot 6 inches before releasing the ball?? I hope so. However would you call this in a 5th grade saturday game when the result of the "slide" is a pass to an open team mate who makes his/her first layup of the season. I mentioned the ever controversial 3 second call earlier in this post where a player makes an effort to clear but does not get the last 5 inches of his/her foot out of the lane. You can call that 5-6 times in a HS game and get a lot of quizical looks from players and coaches and maybe a little chipping, however do that in a college game at least the NC2A (div 3 and JuCo) that I work and you have a coach telling you to go back and keep reffing junior high as well as an assignor that makes sure you do just that...JMO

[dhodges007]

Originally posted by 112448

Chuck

Great stuff. I first heard that at a camp this summer and I can't tell you how much those three words have helped my game. BTW - You can about think speed, quickness, and balance as it pertains to all contact, not just handchecking with the ball handler. E.g., think about balance when 2 big post players are going at each other.

Jake

For the post play I look for dislodgement (same thing as balance) vs. SQB.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by MN 3 Sport Ref
[/B]

I totally agree w/ the consistancy aspect of the game. However are we trying to say here that the amount of contact that causes a 9th grader to miss a shot and is called a foul should be a foul at the college level??? [/B][/QUOTE]Nope!

[MN 3 Sport Ref]

Glad to hear that!!! AMEN I may be a bit charged on this subject, it is just that we have some officials in our area that cannot grasp the "level of play" concept and it makes it very frustrating not only to work w/ them but also to hear them whine about not getting any "good" games and about how the coaches are up their backs all of the time. I really love it when these threads provoke such good discussion not to mention time to vent. That howler monkey tonight won't phase me a bit!!!!

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by zebraman

Rut,

Actually, Bktballref's crew probably calls a couple handchecks in the first quarter and never sees them again, leading to a well played game that both coaches appreciate.

Z

Originally posted by JRutledge
I agree you call it early but you do not just make it up.

Please cite the post where anyone said to "make it up."