Just wondering

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by JRutledge
[/B]

The NF does not have a definition of what handchecking is, they just say that your cannot do it.

But just because you do not agree with it or it does not stand in your parts does not mean that it is wrong. [/B][/QUOTE]
Just a coupla comments on the above statements,Rut:
1)The NF sure does define exactly what you can do with your hands. The actual wording from R10-6-1 is "He/she shall not contact an opponent with his/her hand unless such contact is only with the opponent's hand while it is on the ball and is incidental to an attempt to play the ball.The use of hands on an opponent in any way that inhibits the freedom of movement of the opponent or acts as an aid to a player in starting or stopping is not legal." The POE 4A on p.68-labelled "Hands Off" further defines hand-checking.

2)Why are saying that I don't agree with it,or that anything that stands in my parts is right or wrong? If you re-read what I've written,you will see that I haven't offered any opinion at all on that particular rule,or stated how we call it in my area either.All I stated was that your initial statement about displacement having to be a part of a hand-checking foul is wrong--and I offered as proof the specific statement in the rulebook POE that I quoted.I still stand by that statement.It is a rule,but I never told you how to call the rule.I then said that you should check with your local interpreter as to how he/she wants you to call it.I personally don't have any problem with the way it may happen to be called in Illinois,as long as the guys there try to be consistent in the way they do call it.

[JRutledge]

Again JR, you are dealing in semantics. Just because they did not say in the same breath displacement, does not mean that is not the way it should be called. Considering that they use Rule 4-27 was also used, displacement has to take place in order to call a foul or to determine that you actually have a handcheck. Because in Illinois and in the bigger conferences, you better have a slow whistle and better call some kind of displacement, directing or stopping in order to call a handcheck. If none of these things are present, you better pass. It has even been interpreted that if a player is going north and south and a defender keeps that player from going north and south, then you have a foul. If a player is not making an attempt to the basket or going east or west on their own, then you pass or make sure that the defenders actions do not affect their movement. Now that is a philosophy, do not get all upset because it is not the NF that says this.

Remember, you might want to tell younger officials to start calling "moving screens" too, this has been in the POE last year and this year. Now if I or anyone else were to suggest that we call a moving screen, you might try to suggest that I was crazy or did not understand the rule. But this language is actually in the rulebook this year and I would never advocate calling a screen and saying "moving screen." Screens can be moving and be entirely legal, but if you look at the POE and never look at the rules that deal with contact or screening principles, you would think that it is illegal to move during a screen.

As far as I am concerned and looking at everything that is said in "hands off," you have to have some kind of displacement in order to call handchecking. Now maybe that is not the exact wording of the NF, but I would never use "moving screen" ever either. After saying all of that, it still comes down to the judgement of the official to determine whether you have handchecking at all. And you also might have two official call it differently. No differnet than post play or any other phase of the game. The rules are guides, but the official has to apply their own judgement to what they feel the rules mean or what actually took place.

Peace

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Jake80
I am an older than average (39) second year official but...

I've got y'all beat in the old/new department. I didn't ref my first game until I was 43 and 1/2. I've succeeded by applying that old adage, "Old age and treachery will beat youth and enthusiasm every time!" Just kidding about the treachery...

-Constant hand checking of the guards on the perimeter. Rarely called.

-Throw-in in the front court fumbled by A1 into the backcourt. A1 recovers and backcourt violation was called. Heard the official tell the coach "ball was touched in the frontcourt and then went into backcourt"

-Ball in control of dribbler near three point line in the frontcourt. Defense knocks ball away. Dribbler attempts to recover. Touches ball in front court and finally recovers in the back court. Official waves off backcourt violation.

-D1 prospect plays first five minutes of the game with jersey hanging out of trunks so low it was embarassing. Officials say nothing.

-Point guard dribbling ball closely guarded in the front court. Official counting is between 3rd and 4th count. Player picks up the dribble. Official counts 4 and 5 then whistles a five second violation.

-Throw-in to start the second half. 8 seconds later the table blows the horn and states the arrow was pointed the wrong way. Official resets the clock and starts the half over.

-A1 takes an 18 ft. set shot. Ball is nearly in the goal when B1 boxes A1 hard. A1 goes down. Ball goes in. Official states they are shooting 1.

-So much rough play in the post I thought I was at a D1 college game.

This reminds me of a signature line someone used here for a while, although I haven't seen it lately: If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to be a horrible warning!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by JRutledge
Again JR, you are dealing in semantics.

Nope,I'm dealing with the RULES! The exact same rules that I quoted verbatim to you.Those plainly written rules that I quoted verbatim to you!You can't make them disappear from the rule book,Rut.

Semantics is trying to shape those plainly written rules to try and disguise the fact that your statement,that I also quoted, was wrong.It was wrong,by RULE!

If you want to continue arguing,feel free to do so.It's not going to change the words in the rulebook in any way.

[BigDave]

I know this won't be popular, but I'm leaning towards Rut's opinion on this issue. If we call a handcheck every time the defender touches the dribbler, we are creating a horrible flow and being a little too exacting with this rule. Does the contact impede the dribbler's movement? Is there an advantage created based on the contact?

I know this is the rule and it is a POE, but aren't there some rules we tend to bend for the sake of the game? 3 seconds comes to mind. So does 10 seconds on a FT attempt. To take this handcheck rule to the letter is not the best way to manage the game. Use some judgment and if the kid creates an advantage based on contact, call it.

I guarantee everyone that rebutted Rut will go out and let a little contact go. We all do it. I think you guys that don't like Rut are using the book to back up your argument and you are losing focus on the issue at hand.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by BigDave
I guarantee everyone that rebutted Rut will go out and let a little contact go. We all do it. I think you guys that don't like Rut are using the book to back up your argument and you are losing focus on the issue at hand.

I think that you need to go back and re-read all the posts,BigDave.You are mis-interpreting what is being said,and what the issue at hand in this thread has been to date.The only rebutting that anyone has done so far is to point out that there IS language in the rule book that says that you CAN have "hand-checking" WITHOUT having to displace someone,contrary to what Rut posted.I don't think anyone,including myself,has said that you HAVE to call it as strictly as the rule book tells you to.

Liking someone or not liking someone has got absolutely nothing to do with what I've been posting.I've been quoting the rule book only to date,and have not offered any personal opinion or comment on the particular rules language-other than to say that you should follow your local interpreter's direction as to how to call this rule.

I hope that straightens up where I stand on this,and clears up for you what the issue really has been.

PS-I pretty much agree with your first two paragraphs on how TO call the rule,but that was never the issue.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jan 3rd, 2003 at 03:17 AM]

[JRutledge]

If displacement is not apart of the rules, what is it then? What does the rules consider handchecking? Touching? About to touch the dribbler? Because with your rational, I am more confused what you think the NF feels that handchecking is? Just explain to me if displacement cannot be apart of this rule, then when do we have it according to the NF?

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by JRutledge
If displacement is not apart of the rules, what is it then? What does the rules consider handchecking? Touching? About to touch the dribbler? Because with your rational, I am more confused what you think the NF feels that handchecking is? Just explain to me if displacement cannot be apart of this rule, then when do we have it according to the NF?

Peace

No one has EVER stated that displacement is NOT a part of the rules.It most definitely is a PART of the rules(emphasis on "part").The statement that I am making is that hand-checking can ALSO be called without displacement being part of it. "Tagging" a player without displacing that player is a foul,according to the strictest interpretation of the NFHS rules. The particular rules that I quoted back that statement up.I am NOT saying that it SHOULD be called. I am saying that it CAN be called.

I hope that is cleared up now for you.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jan 3rd, 2003 at 03:34 AM]

[dhodges007]

You can sit here and debate about when to call handchecking all you want. The NFHS wants it cleaned up. IMO to get this cleaned up we need to call it early. Notice I didn't say call it often or don't use judgement. Judgement still comes into play on this one too.

If I have the point guard making a drive toward the basket and the defender has his hand or hands on him, two minutes into the game, I will probably have a whistle which lets everyone know that it is hands off tonight. One whistle, one foul, and most likely a clean game (at least up top) .

[zebraman]

Man, I bet your games take all day and your are in the 2 shot bonus in the first quarter. Coaches got to love you.

Rut,

Actually, Bktballref's crew probably calls a couple handchecks in the first quarter and never sees them again, leading to a well played game that both coaches appreciate. From your posts, it sounds as if handchecking will continue to be a POE for years to come (they continue until officials catch on).

Z

[JRutledge]

but you do not just make it up. They have to make some kind effort to put their hand on them, but I still am not calling something until they do that. And just because you call it early, does not mean it will not happen late. I still am going to consider the actions and the abilities of the dribbler and defender. I really do not care what the NF wants, the folks in my part do not want calls for handchecking when you have better dribblers beating weak defenders to the hole or making easy passes that get lay-ups or dunks. I have had the privilege of officiating some very talented kids over the years, and those kids are quick and will blow by you no matter what the defender does. I am not calling a handcheck out front just because that defender touched them. That is really what we call around here a Class A call (small schools). If you want to do the big conferences or move up to the college level, you better not be too quick to call something and the play was not affected. I am from Big Ten country, these players and teams do not play ACC ball, where any touch is a foul. Just the way it is. And I do not buy that the NF just wants us to call touching as fouls. If that was the case they would never refer to 4-27 and make sure that we keep this in mind.

Peace

[zebraman]

Rut,

Now you're starting to make some sense. One of your first posts stated (and I'm quoting from what YOU wrote), "You were there and unless there was displacement, there is no handchecking by rule." That doesn't wash with the rule book nor with reality.

Somewhere between a "touch foul" and "displacement" is a handcheck foul and I know it when I see it because it affects the dribble. This is where it's key to "hold your whistle" so that you don't penalize a strong player.

Z

[Tim Roden]

Rut, The NF wants to clean up the handchecking. What you are calling is what interpreters have been asking for for the last ten years. In the last couple of years the NF has said that displacement is too late. They want no hands. So the question is, do you call what your interpreter wants or what the NF wants. Whichever way you decide to go that night, call it early. Otherwise, you will see handchecking all night long. At our rules clinic this year, the clinician said that if you will call it early, the players get the message and they will stop. But they are waiting for you to set the stage.

[MN 3 Sport Ref]

While this may not be a popular opinion w/ some, I believe the game needs to be called according to the style of play. Here in Minnesota we have 5 classes for HS basketball. I have the luxury (or headache) of working games in all 5 of these classes. (they are ranked according to school size) It is my firm opinion that each of these games cannot be called the same. I did a semi-final 5A boys game at a holiday tourney about a week ago and I will be the first to tell you that assignors/coaches would have run us out of the building had we called this game as tight as we call some lower level games w/ less skilled players. We were complimented after the game on how we let contact that did not affect the play go and called the pertinent disadvantage. In our area working a big game like this and not affecting the "flow" of the game in mind (and assignors) is how one gets big games. In a sloppy 1A or 2A game yes the slight handcheck or the illegal screen needs to be called early to clean up the game. We also need to penalizer fouls early to set the tone of the game and keep the players safe. However IMO when working a game in which all players on the floor will be playing college ball (one at Oklahoma and another at ball state in the above game i mentioned) one needs to adapt JUDGEMENT of fouls to suit that style of play. One of the biggest atributes to a good official and moving up quickly in our area is calling the game within its style of play. I know some decent officials in our area who struggle to get a decent HS schedule after 10 plus years because they refuse to adapt to this and call the rule book WRITTEN IN STONE. Obviously there are some games where a lot of fouls need to be called. However when two skilled teams are in the bonus in the first quarter because my partner is calling every whif of contect, well sorry that is why I am starting to get college games after 3 years and he gets 8 varsity games after 10. I'm wide open for opinions and critiques on this....

[Hawks Coach]

MN3sport
Love that philosophy. You need to recognize how the game is being played and call it accordingly. The faster, stronger, and more skilled the players, the more contact you will see that you will let go. You don't want to be blowing it dead every possession or severely hampering the style of play. Call what you need to and let the players play the game.