Just wondering

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by JRutledge
I agree you call it early but you do not just make it up.

Please cite the post where anyone said to "make it up." [/B][/QUOTE]

I didn't say anyone said that. But if you are going to call handchecking, you have to have more than a touch. I am not assigned by the NF, so really what the NF wants is only a perimeter. The reality is to call displacement or movement that affects the dribbler.

Peace

[just another ref]

I waited for somebody else to make a reference to this and help me start but nobody did, so here goes. Quoting from
POE #4: The MEASURING up of an opponent (TAGGING) is hand-checking, is not permitted, and is a FOUL. These terms,
measuring and tagging, suggest only a very slight contact to me. With a very light touch a defender can help himself to keep a constant position in relation to the dribbler and help himself by feeling a change of direction perhaps before it could be seen.

Quoting again: DEFENDERS ARE NOT PERMITTED TO HAVE HANDS ON THE DRIBBLER! (their exclamation point, not mine) Hand checking is not incidental contact; it gives a TREMENDOUS advantage. Now we get back to the hard part, judgment. Obviously, like other calls, there are a jillion degrees of hand checks. But, when the defender places his hand on the dribbler, no matter how lightly, it is a deliberate act and the way this POE is written, if it was called a foul with every place of the hand, how could anyone complain? (What percent of coaches know what POE stands for?)

Bottom line (is that sighs of relief I hear?) is that if the hand check gains the defender an advantage, it certainly should be called. If it doesn't gain him an advantage and he gets called for a foul, won't he stop doing it?

[mick]

Originally posted by just another ref
...Bottom line (is that sighs of relief I hear?) is that if the hand check gains the defender an advantage, it certainly should be called. If it doesn't gain him an advantage and he gets called for a foul, won't he stop doing it?

Justa,
Last night, two undefeateds.
I called two or three "Three-count, nothing handchecks" early.
That call went away.
mick

[JRutledge]

just another ref,

The problem I see with that statement, suggest that there is never a time defender can touch a dribbler. The reality is that is not completely true. If a defender is retreating and the touching was kind of a protection from getting ran over, I do not think I will call a handcheck on a defender. Even when we talk about legal guarding position, the rules allow the defender to put their hands up and arms up to protect themselves as long as they are within their vertical plane. This is where judgment comes in. This is why we get paid the big bucks. In my opinion and what I have been taught for several years, call handchecking when the defender directed the dribbler, not just when they touch them. Especially on a retreating defender you do not want to call handchecking when they are not coming out to defend a play. If they are getting beat and the contact did not affect that, leave it alone. See the problem is that NF is trying to cover several states, several skill levels and several styles of basketball. And if you were to work in some of the bigger Christmas Tournaments around here and call a touch as handchecking, you would not be back. Not because you were not applying the rules right, but it is greatly discouraged to call slight contact that does not affect play. And even tagging or a touch on a stationary player in many circles is allowed once, keep doing it is is a foul. But I personally have been talking players out of this action without having to call a foul. Especially early when it appears they want to use their hands to try to measure their opponent with their hands without touching them.

Peace

[Hawks Coach]

I like Jeff's way of doing it. If you think they are getting a little to active on the measuring up and it could devolve into something more, talk to them. But in realtiy, there is no significant advantage gained on this type of contact, it just can begin to lead to a little more undesirable activity. If you warn them off the touchy feely stuff and they then choose to continue, hit them with the foul. But let players play the game and call what needs to be called.

A cheap foul on the starting point guard early in the game when no meaningful advantage was gained is not worth calling. It may look like a little message from the ref in the first quarter, but it may turn out to put a player in foul trouble. If you can accomplish the same end (stopping the unnecessary contact) without calling the foul, and not really disadvantage anybody in the process, talk them out of the silly stuff.

Tony, I know you can quote chapter and verse of the rules. But since the handcheck rules aren't commonly enforced that tightly. By stepping in and enforcing tightly without first warning, you do potentially impact the game without having changed the way it gets played.

[mick]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
I like Jeff's way of doing it. If you think they are getting a little to active on the measuring up and it could devolve into something more, talk to them. But in realtiy, there is no significant advantage gained on this type of contact, it just can begin to lead to a little more undesirable activity. If you warn them off the touchy feely stuff and they then choose to continue, hit them with the foul. But let players play the game and call what needs to be called.

A cheap foul on the starting point guard early in the game when no meaningful advantage was gained is not worth calling. It may look like a little message from the ref in the first quarter, but it may turn out to put a player in foul trouble. If you can accomplish the same end (stopping the unnecessary contact) without calling the foul, and not really disadvantage anybody in the process, talk them out of the silly stuff.

Tony, I know you can quote chapter and verse of the rules. But since the handcheck rules aren't commonly enforced that tightly. By stepping in and enforcing tightly without first warning, you do potentially impact the game without having changed the way it gets played.

Hawks Coach,

Dribbler in front court five feet offthe division line being hand touched my defender.

Post Player, back to the board, with the ball faking right and left with defenders hand riding him.
You want a warning? ...On ball?
Except for a few noted exceptions, you have to make the call/no-call. Verbal warnings are acceptable in many cases, but applicable to only off-ball situations.
If you want to coach hand riding by your point guard to test the officials, that is certainly your right, and... your gamble.
mick

[just another ref]

Originally posted by mick
"Three-count, nothing handchecks"
mick [/B]

Translation? Does that mean hands on for a count of 3?

[mick]

Originally posted by just another ref

Translation? Does that mean hands on for a count of 3? [/B]

justa,
Yeah, ... a count of three.
I figger that's a pretty long ride for a defender that shouldn't be doing that at all.
Many HS players can be "bothered" by a defender's hand constantly touching them. (Nobody knows I am counting to three, except me.)
Fed says None, Women says two. I say Noneafterthree.
mick

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by JRutledge
The problem I see with that statement, suggest that there is never a time defender can touch a dribbler. The reality is that is not completely true. If a defender is retreating and the touching was kind of a protection from getting ran over, I do not think I will call a handcheck on a defender. Even when we talk about legal guarding position, the rules allow the defender to put their hands up and arms up to protect themselves as long as they are within their vertical plane. This is where judgment comes in.

Basically,you can't call a hand-check unless the defender initiates the action.

[Hawks Coach]

Originally posted by mick

Hawks Coach,

Dribbler in front court five feet offthe division line being hand touched my defender.

Post Player, back to the board, with the ball faking right and left with defenders hand riding him.
You want a warning? ...On ball?
Except for a few noted exceptions, you have to make the call/no-call. Verbal warnings are acceptable in many cases, but applicable to only off-ball situations.
If you want to coach hand riding by your point guard to test the officials, that is certainly your right, and... your gamble.
mick

Don't think I would question these calls - I was referring to the measuring up provisions only. I think the measuring up can be cleaned up by warnings first, then foul calls. And I like your 3 count. Don't know if 3 is the right number, but you have a rule of thumb, you are consistent, and it isn't going to result in a lot of touch fouls. A player has to ask for the whistle, and then you are ready to give it. Sounds great to me.

As for coaching my players to hand-check, I guess I could do it but it wouldn't work anyway. Girls can't handcheck, 'cause they're to busy reaching in to get the ball

[mick]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach


As for coaching my players to hand-check, I guess I could do it but it wouldn't work anyway. Girls can't handcheck, 'cause they're to busy reaching in to get the ball

Hawks Coach,
Cute choice of words.
You are, I assume, teaching them to attack the ball by swatting up. That makes for very rare fouls whether your team hits a wrist or not.
mick

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
A cheap foul on the starting point guard early in the game when no meaningful advantage was gained is not worth calling. It may look like a little message from the ref in the first quarter, but it may turn out to put a player in foul trouble.

That's not my concern, it's the coach's. If the PG gets an early foul, then he's not going to hand check again, plus the burden is now on him not to get 4 more. He'll have to adjust his game, I'm not going to adjust mine just based on what you or your player are comfortable with. I can't worry about whether he's going to get into foul trouble or not. That's your concern. Tell him not to do it and he won't have a problem.

As I said before, coaches in my area know the crews and know what they're going to call in most cases. They grade film and know which crews watch for illegal screens, handchecking, etc. They know which crews allow which more contact and they know which crews call it tighter. But in any case, a handchecking foul in the 1st quarter should send a meesage to the coaches and player, "Hey, we're not going to put up with that toinight." You'll adjust or you won't. It's up to you.

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
By stepping in and enforcing tightly without first warning, you do potentially impact the game without having changed the way it gets played.

Well, that doesn't make much sense but if that's what you believe, fine. If I choose to warn about anything, then that's a courtesy. but if you're gaining an advantage, you're not getting a warning. You're getting a foul. Coach' it's a POE. We've been told to call it, and we're doing so in my area.

How much more warning do you need?

[just another ref]

Originally posted by mick
All good officials should call the same game.
Teams and coaches should adjust, not the officials.

THUNDEROUS APPLAUSE

[just another ref]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

That's not my concern, it's the coach's. If the PG gets an early foul, then he's not going to hand check again. He'll have to adjust his game, Tell him not to do it and he won't have a problem.

But in any case, a handchecking foul in the 1st quarter should send a meesage to the coaches and player, "Hey, we're not going to put up with that toinight." You'll adjust or you won't. It's up to you.

Well, that doesn't make much sense but if that's what you believe, fine. If I choose to warn about anything, then that's a courtesy. but if you're gaining an advantage, you're not getting a warning. You're getting a foul. Coach' it's a POE. We've been told to call it, and we're doing so in my area.

How much more warning do you need?

STANDING OVATION

[just another ref]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JRutledge
[B]just another ref,

The problem I see with that statement, suggest that there is never a time defender can touch a dribbler.
__________________________________________________ _________

Which statement was that?
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The reality is that is not completely true. If a defender is retreating and the touching was kind of a protection from getting ran over, I do not think I will call a handcheck on a defender.
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Depends on the touch. You could be retreating and protect yourself with a "Chuck Norris Touch" of some kind.
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Even when we talk about legal guarding position, the rules allow the defender to put their hands up and arms up to protect themselves as long as they are within their vertical plane.
__________________________________________________ __________

Absolutely true, but what does that have to do with what we were talking about.
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In my opinion and what I have been taught for several years, call handchecking when the defender directed the dribbler, not just when they touch them.
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Would that be the same as displacement? I believe that is the term you used earlier.
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Especially on a retreating defender you do not want to call handchecking when they are not coming out to defend a play.
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I'm a little vague on this one, but the retreating defender can often be be guilty of a hand check foul as he tries to recover an original position in front of a dribbler.
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If they are getting beat and the contact did not affect that, leave it alone.
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Fair enough.
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See the problem is that NF is trying to cover several states, several skill levels and several styles of basketball.
__________________________________________________ __________

I don't really consider this a problem. This is where that word JUDGMENT comes in. I think we all agree on that. What I do consider a problem is the higher skill levels taking liberties with the rules. This started in the NBA.
It is now solidly entrenched in the college game, and is making strides every year in high school, and even below, in my opinion.
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And if you were to work in some of the bigger Christmas Tournaments around here and call a touch as handchecking, you would not be back.
__________________________________________________ __________

Right now, this is the least of my worries. They wouldn't hire me anyhow, I wear a belt.
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And even tagging or a touch on a stationary player in many circles is allowed once, keep doing it is is a foul.
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I'm lost again. What circles are you referring to now?
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But I personally have been talking players out of this action without having to call a foul. Especially early when it appears they want to use their hands to try to measure their opponent with their hands without touching them.
__________________________________________________ __________

Off the ball, as mick said, a warning is okay, even though it is not something I do a lot of myself. But what about on the ball? Do you talk to them, too? And why would they be talked out of it so easily if they know you at all. You already said it is not a foul without displacement.
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