Just wondering

[Jake80]

I attended a game over the weekend in another part of my state to observe the officiating in hopes of sharpening my skills. I am an older than average (39) second year official but have been around the game as a player and coach most of my life. Although I am sure my grasp of the rules is not nearly as great as some officials on this board, I consider myself fairly well versed in the rules.
Here are some things I observed.

-Constant hand checking of the guards on the perimeter. Rarely called.

-Throw-in in the front court fumbled by A1 into the backcourt. A1 recovers and backcourt violation was called. Heard the official tell the coach "ball was touched in the frontcourt and then went into backcourt"

-Ball in control of dribbler near three point line in the frontcourt. Defense knocks ball away. Dribbler attempts to recover. Touches ball in front court and finally recovers in the back court. Official waves off backcourt violation.

-D1 prospect plays first five minutes of the game with jersey hanging out of trunks so low it was embarassing. Officials say nothing.

-Point guard dribbling ball closely guarded in the front court. Official counting is between 3rd and 4th count. Player picks up the dribble. Official counts 4 and 5 then whistles a five second violation.

-Throw-in to start the second half. 8 seconds later the table blows the horn and states the arrow was pointed the wrong way. Official resets the clock and starts the half over.

-A1 takes an 18 ft. set shot. Ball is nearly in the goal when B1 boxes A1 hard. A1 goes down. Ball goes in. Official states they are shooting 1.

-So much rough play in the post I thought I was at a D1 college game.

Although we do have local associations in my state, high school officials are hired by each school independent of local associations. It is my feeling that this process has the potential to keep good officials from doing some games at the expense of the "good ole boys" network. I was just wondering how many other states operate in this fashion.

[zebraman]

Maybe the ref had such good presence that rule knowledge isn't necessary or maybe the game was in Illinois where the rules of the game depend on who the assignor is (oh, I couldn't resist). :-)

Yes, I can see where there could be a breeding ground for a "good ol' boys" network with the system you describe. I've always thought that giving coaches or A.D.'s any input to the officials who get their games is a huge conflict of interest. In our area, we have a combination of peer (fellow officials) ratings and independent observer ratings that determine where an official is rated. That determines the level of games they are qualified for. Then we have an assignor (NOT an active official) who schedules the officials for the games. I suppose you could have a "good ol' boys" network if the assignor was "taking care of his friends," but we also have a board of directors who oversees the assignor as well as "guidelines" for how the assigning is done based on the official's rating.

Z

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by zebraman
Maybe the ref had such good presence that rule knowledge isn't necessary or maybe the game was in Illinois where the rules of the game depend on who the assignor is (oh, I couldn't resist). :-)

Better yet, maybe he past your beloved test and does not have to prove anything on the court. Ya know, maybe they already know that they are doing the championship game, them might not care what happens during this game.

Just because someone is given a game, does not mean that they know what they are doing, especially at the HS level. Some of the worst things I have seen are from HS level only officials. Not everyone is trained nor understands the game very well. Actually, I have found very few officials that even played the game on some level.

Some of your complaints Jake80 is judgement. I cannot tell on a computer screen what handchecking is. You were there and unless there was displacement, there is no handchecking by rule. Even what you call rough play, judgement comes into play there again. The other situations are just out there. Cannot give any reasonable answer but that the were assigned the games. It just works out that way sometimes.

Peace

[williebfree]

Jake80

I am a "late bloomer" as well (4th season, 40 yrs old), I am curious about other aspects that you noticed in the game....
How was the "game flow"? Did they do a pre-game conference with that Captians, coaches, table....
When I have the luxury of staying for the varsity game (after officiating a JV game), I am like a sponge observing all the nuances... such as, but not limited to, Eye contact, partner (table & scorer) support, "seemless transitions", etc...

ZEBRAMAN

You would have a "hairy" if you were in our area, non-conference games are hired by the Home AD AND the coaches are the ones who rate the officials. They send card to the state association. Sadly, it is easy to identify the cards that come from the losing team.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by JRutledge
[/B]

Some of your complaints Jake80 is judgement. I cannot tell on a computer screen what handchecking is. You were there and unless there was displacement, there is no handchecking by rule.[/B][/QUOTE]New officials,please ignore the above statement.It is wrong.More experienced officials should already know that.Instead,take a look at p.68 of the rule book for this year's POE's.It details how the FED wants it called. Note the section "Rough Play'-4A(Hands Off)-and the statement "the measuring up of an opponent(tagging) IS hand checking,is not permitted,and is a FOUL". Displacement of a player is not germane or applicable in this particular instance.You might want to check with your local rules interpreter as to how strictly he may want it called,but it IS handchecking by rule,displacement IS not involved,and the NFHS rules committee IS recommending that it be called.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jan 2nd, 2003 at 04:37 PM]

[DownTownTonyBrown]

You have the right idea Jake. Go see some games. See different officials. There are some good ones out there also. Find some you want to emmulate and watch their games.

Sounds like in this case... at least your rules knowledge... was above those doing the game.

There is something to learn from EVERYONE.... however you must decide to learn it and included in that decision is your selection of appropriate things to learn and those to avoid.

Perhaps you learned some things of value from this game... they were likely there to be had.

[Tim Roden]

In my early days I watched a lot of games. I still watch whenever I can't call or have to work. Most nights I learned a lot about how to call a game from watching the officials. Others, I learned how not to call the game. Those nights I learned that there really is a need for me to stick around because I would do a better job then those guys that night. I left one gym in such disgust, that I thought I was God's gift to the area. From what you observed, take it down use it to grow from. Just remember though, that until you step on that floor and call the game, you really don't know what you would do in a similar situation.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Some of your complaints Jake80 is judgement. I cannot tell on a computer screen what handchecking is. You were there and unless there was displacement, there is no handchecking by rule.[/B]

New officials,please ignore the above statement.It is wrong.More experienced officials should already know that.Instead,take a look at p.68 of the rule book for this year's POE's.It details how the FED wants it called. Note the section "Rough Play'-4A(Hands Off)-and the statement "the measuring up of an opponent(tagging) IS hand checking,is not permitted,and is a FOUL". Displacement of a player is not germane or applicable in this particular instance.You might want to check with your local rules interpreter as to how strictly he may want it called,but it IS handchecking by rule,displacement IS not involved,and the NFHS rules committee IS recommending that it be called.

[/B][/QUOTE]

On page 68 of the NF Rulebook the NF makes it clear that Rule 4-27 applies to contact. Yes, they do not want hands on the dribblier, but any official worth his salt is not calling just a touch on a dribbler. That is where judgement comes in. If you are calling a touch and you have no displacement or no affect on a play, you might be watching more games than you are officiating. Maybe in your area that is permitted, but even in Women's College which has the most strict rule on handchecking, does not just say touching is handchecking. This is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read from you. There has to be some displacement or you will be calling handchecking all night. If a defender is getting beat and they touch them, I am not taking away a layup because they touched them. I am not taking away a open pass because the defender touched them. Handchecking has never been just a touch. You still have to use some kind of advantage disadvantage, the rule always backs that up. Rule 4-27 refers to all contact, not just all contact and then handchecking is the expection.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by JRutledge
[/B]

This is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read from you. [/B][/QUOTE]I hate to break this to you,Rut,but I didn't say that you could have handchecking without displacement. The NFHS rule book said that,and I just quoted the rule book "word for word".The RULEBOOK disagrees with your above statement regarding hand-checking.It says that you CAN have hand-checking without displacement.If you want to argue that,may I suggest that you contact the people who wrote that POE.Get in touch with the NFHS rulesmakers and tell THEM that their wording in the POE on p.68 is wrong-specifically "The measuring up of an opponent(tagging)is hand-checking,is not permitted,and is a FOUL".

You are arguing with the wrong person,and the "wrong person" is not gonna argue this any further with you. That would be pointless.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jan 2nd, 2003 at 06:39 PM]

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

This is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read from you. [/B]

I hate to break this to you,Rut,but I didn't say that you could have handchecking without displacement. The NFHS rule book said that,and I just quoted the rule book "word for word".The RULEBOOK disagrees with your above statement.If you want to argue that,may I suggest that you contact the people who wrote that POE.Get in touch with the NFHS rulesmakers and tell THEM that their wording in the POE on p.68 is wrong-specifically "The measuring up of an opponent(tagging)is hand-checking,is not permitted,and is a FOUL".

You are arguing with the wrong person,and the "wrong person" is not gonna argue this any further with you. That would be pointless. [/B][/QUOTE]

The NF does not have a definition of what handchecking is, they just say that your cannot do it. I have never gotten the impression and never been told by the people that we have in our state that actually sit on the NF Basketball Committee Board or the NF Rulebook Editor, that comes directly from our state ever characterize handchecking as touching. And if you claim the NF wants us to call it that way, I have yet to meet and experienced official that calls it that way. Even in the NF Rulebook, the refer to an exsisting rule 4-27. All foul calls are judgement related. All violations are judgement related. You might not realize that a foul or a violation has taken place if you do not have the judgement to realize that it took place according to the rules. And anyone sitting in the stands and any self-respecting official should realize that what you see in the stands is not always what actually happen on the court. Really, that is the only point that I was making. Jake80 might have clearly thought that handchecking was taking place, but because he was not on the floor, he or anyone might not have got the same look.

You are right JR, this is silly. But just because you do not agree with it or it does not stand in your parts does not mean that it is wrong. I guarantee that if any official calls handchecking without considering some kind of displacement, they might be watching much more than they are officiating. Or better yet, they will not be officiating varsity or higher level games. The NF is not Women's Basketball and that is why many individuals are not doing them.

Peace

[Edited by JRutledge on Jan 2nd, 2003 at 06:54 PM]

[mick]

Originally posted by Jake80

Although we do have local associations in my state, high school officials are hired by each school independent of local associations. It is my feeling that this process has the potential to keep good officials from doing some games at the expense of the "good ole boys" network. I was just wondering how many other states operate in this fashion.

Jake80,
You may have run into a game where the new guys actually got a chance to work their first varsity game.
mick

[zebraman]

The Rough Play (repeated from 2001-02 - and when they repeat it, I'd say that some of us JUST AREN'T GETTING IT) also says, "defenders are not permitted to have hands on the dribbler!" (notice exclamation point).

It then goes on to say, "hand checking is not incidental contact; it gives a tremendous advantage to the person illegally using their hands." You'd have to be pretty hard-headed to think that displacement is required here. If the defense controls the offensive player at all you have a foul.

Rut, you cite Rule 4-27. Note that article 3 of 4-27 says, "contact which does not hinder the opponent from participating in normal defensive or offensive movements should be considered incidental." I can think of a lot of handchecking that hinders offensive movement without displacement. But then again, I'm just quoting from the rulebook which and obviously the NFHS rules committee knows far less about how the games should be called than your assignors.

Z

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by JRutledge
There has to be some displacement or you will be calling handchecking all night.

Wrong again. Call it a couple of times each way in the first quarter and you've cleaned it up for the rest of the game.

2002-2003 NFHS Points of Emphasis
4. ROUGH PLAY
A. Hands off
• Defenders are not permitted to have hands on the dribbler!
• The measuring up of an opponent (tagging) is hand-checking, is not permitted, and is a FOUL.
• Use of a forearm, regardless of the duration of the contact is a FOUL.
• Hand checking is not incidental contact; it gives a tremendous advantage to the person illegally using their hands.

Funny how I don't see the word "displacement" mentioned.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Wrong again. Call it a couple of times each way in the first quarter and you've cleaned it up for the rest of the game.

2002-2003 NFHS Points of Emphasis
4. ROUGH PLAY
A. Hands off
• Defenders are not permitted to have hands on the dribbler!
• The measuring up of an opponent (tagging) is hand-checking, is not permitted, and is a FOUL.
• Use of a forearm, regardless of the duration of the contact is a FOUL.
• Hand checking is not incidental contact; it gives a tremendous advantage to the person illegally using their hands.

Funny how I don't see the word "displacement" mentioned.

Again, if you call a touch in my area (remember our clinicians are not teaching the NF "hands off") then you will be officiating Junior High games. Because if you do not allow a player like Dee Brown on that went to Proviso East High School in Maywood, Illinois and is currently playing for Illinois in the Big Ten a touch when he drove to the basket when he was in HS, you would not be officiting much longer. And around here, to do Class AA ball (Big Schools) you better not be calling the first touch on a strong dribbler. You better consider some displacement whether you like it or not. The NF is not the standard for all things officiating. If it was, then the IHSA would not adopt many of their own mechanics and rules that the NF does not have in that little book. I am sure other states are the same.

Man, I bet your games take all day and your are in the 2 shot bonus in the first quarter. Coaches got to love you.

Peace

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by JRutledge


Man, I bet your games take all day and your are in the 2 shot bonus in the first quarter. Coaches got to love you.

A bet you would lose. Coaches in my area scout officiating crews, just like they scout opponents. They're familiar with what each crew will allow and what they won't let go. They know that our crew will clean up post play, hand checking, and illegal screens early.

And yes, they do love me!