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[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

Randy, you're question has already been answered by JR. You are making this way too complicated. You can't grasp the rim save for the specific exceptions that have already been cited in the thread. I really don't understand what your confusion is. It's a pretty basic basket rule.

Also answered by you and Snaqs.....

I have no idea why he comes here. There was some very good points made in this thread by various posters. Unfortunately Randy doesn't seem to understand them and he also just refuses to believe anything that he's told. He surashell doesn't understand the nuances of this particular rule when we talk about them.

[tref]

Originally Posted by RandyBrown

Any of you guys ever seen a high school player with the ability to contact the ring or backboard and use it to their advantage somehow? I don't think I've ever seen that, including as a spectator.

Originally Posted by RandyBrown

Perhaps, but I'm wondering if others have a different view, considering that dunking is allowed, and that grasping is allowed while dunking. I know I have seen it numerous times where a player tries a two-handed dunk, believes or realizes it isn't going to happen, lets one hand slip off to grasp the rim, followed by the other hand driving the ball through, and a final two-handed grasp. On those occasions, I have never seen a T called.

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

Numerous times? Really?

Im confused, which one is it?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by tref

I'd like to see some of those games!!

Lots of funky stuff happens in competitive AAU varsity games.

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

Numerous times? Really? Perhaps what you think you are seeing isn't really occurring because I can say I've rarely seen this play happen where the player/team wasn't properly penalized. I could see this maybe happening when the officials on the game aren't used to above the rim play, but for any official who has even done just a few above the rim games, this shouldn't catch them off guard.

That's what I was thinking.

When I first arrived at the forum several yrs ago, I asked a question about players hanging on the rim. Many dunks, I believe, end in players excessively hanging or holding on the rim (mostly at the college and NBA level).....and we're talking grasping and holding, swinging, nearly doing chin ups, etc., and they are very rarely called.

With experience, I learned not to be a plumber.

The play of which you speak, IMO, would happen very fast, and you would not be evaluated well, or move forward, by calling it.

You'll learn to let em go (or not).......I did.

[RandyBrown]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

Numerous times? Really? Perhaps what you think you are seeing isn't really occurring because I can say I've rarely seen this play happen where the player/team wasn't properly penalized. I could see this maybe happening when the officials on the game aren't used to above the rim play, but for any official who has even done just a few above the rim games, this shouldn't catch them off guard.

I'm relying on a lifetime of spectating, here. Maybe the rule is different in college and/or pro? That is where I would have seen most of it. I come from the land of white. I don't have a problem accepting it. I just wasn't seeing the distinction as important, as long as no hanging was done or advantage gained by the initial grab, considering that the rules allow for grasping while dunking. This struck me as one of those situations where I thought at least some of you would argue there is no violation of the intent of the rules, because there is no advantage gained.

[Welpe]

No advantage gained by a player grasping the rim with his free hand before dunking...ooookay then.

[RandyBrown]

Originally Posted by tref

Im confused, which one is it?

The first passage you quote me on is from my originally intended discussion of 10-3-4. Responses drifted from that, and we turned to 10-3-3, which is where we were in the second passage.

[RandyBrown]

Originally Posted by Welpe

No advantage gained by a player grasping the rim with his free hand before dunking...ooookay then.

All during the downward dunking motion. As I said previously, no hanging, no propulsion, no prolonging. Where's the advantage?

[RandyBrown]

Originally Posted by grunewar

That's what I was thinking.

When I first arrived at the forum several yrs ago, I asked a question about players hanging on the rim. Many dunks, I believe, end in players excessively hanging or holding on the rim (mostly at the college and NBA level).....and we're talking grasping and holding, swinging, nearly doing chin ups, etc., and they are very rarely called.

With experience, I learned not to be a plumber.

The play of which you speak, IMO, would happen very fast, and you would not be evaluated well, or move forward, by calling it.

You'll learn to let em go (or not).......I did.

Well, that's what I was thinking, but most of the responses, here, indicate they would not let them go.

[tref]

Originally Posted by Welpe

No advantage gained by a player grasping the rim with his free hand before dunking...ooookay then.

My chances of playing in The League would've increased considerably, if that was legal

[APG]

Originally Posted by RandyBrown

I'm relying on a lifetime of spectating, here. Maybe the rule is different in college and/or pro? That is where I would have seen most of it. I come from the land of white. I don't have a problem accepting it. I just wasn't seeing the distinction as important, as long as no hanging was done or advantage gained by the initial grab, considering that the rules allow for grasping while dunking. This struck me as one of those situations where I thought at least some of you would argue there is no violation of the intent of the rules, because there is no advantage gained.

This play isn't legal at any level. The rule is the same under NCAA rules I believe. Under NBA rules, this would be an illegal assist in scoring violation...not a technical foul. The ball would be awarded to the defense at the free throw line extended.

Again I say, what you think you are viewing must not be what is happening. No official is going to allow a player to grasp the rim clearly with his off-hand and dunk the ball with the other hand...I promise you if I allowed this to happen in a game, the entire team on defense, the bench, the coach, the person at the snack bar getting popcorn...everyone would give me hell for this, because everyone knows you can't do this...the dunker would probably have a look on his face knowing he got away with one.

Haven't you yourself said you've only been officiating for at most two years? I'd be very careful in trying to determine what is and isn't the intent of the rules...the replies you get on the forum come from those that have been doing this a lot longer than you and I have. I would concentrate more on knowing the rules inside and out, mechanics, and how to properly enforce the rules.

[RandyBrown]

Anyway, getting back to my topic: It sounds like some of you work in areas where at least some of the high school kids are capable of violating 10-3-4a. In an attempt to gather its frequency, has any of you ever actually called it?

[APG]

Originally Posted by RandyBrown

Anyway, getting back to my topic: It sounds like some of you work in areas where at least some of the high school kids are capable of violating 10-3-4a. In an attempt to gather its frequency, has any of you ever actually called it?

Not very often...it's not even a call that happens at any level of play that often. Consider how many times you've seen this happen in NCAA/NBA games. Players pretty much know you can't do this. I've called it once and it was pretty blatant.

[RandyBrown]

Originally Posted by tref

My chances of playing in The League would've increased considerably, if that was legal

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

This play isn't legal at any level. The rule is the same under NCAA rules I believe. Under NBA rules, this would be an illegal assist in scoring violation...not a technical foul. The ball would be awarded to the defense at the free throw line extended.

Again I say, what you think you are viewing must not be what is happening. No official is going to allow a player to grasp the rim clearly with his off-hand and dunk the ball with the other hand...I promise you if I allowed this to happen in a game, the entire team on defense, the bench, the coach, the person at the snack bar getting popcorn...everyone would give me hell for this, because everyone knows you can't do this...the dunker would probably have a look on his face knowing he got away with one.

Haven't you yourself said you've only been officiating for at most two years? I'd be very careful in trying to determine what is and isn't the intent of the rules...the replies you get on the forum come from those that have been doing this a lot longer than you and I have. I would concentrate more on knowing the rules inside and out, mechanics, and how to properly enforce the rules.

I'm not sure I'm being understood. I'm talking about what grunewar is talking about, and tref when he indicated it would be allowed because during a dunk, and Snaq when he seemed to make a distinction based on whether control of the ball was maintained. Some of you seem to be imagining moment being applied to the ring. I'm just talking about a simple grasp, nothing else--no affect whatever on the goal taking place by the hand with the ball doing the dunking.

[RandyBrown]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

Not very often...it's not even a call that happens at any level of play that often. Consider how many times you've seen this happen in NCAA/NBA games. Players pretty much know you can't do this. I've called it once and it was pretty blatant.

That comports with my observations as a spectator.