Butler-VCU (or VCU-Butler) Conversation

[canuckrefguy]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

Block or charge?

The Butler guy was late - not by a lot, but still late. If the VCU player starts his layup before the defender "is there", it's a block.

Two things on that play - (1) excellent lead positioning by Luckie, he's boxing in the play close as opposed to being on the sideline; Driscoll is behind the play, so Luckie has a better look, even though he gives up the call. I'd bet my bottom dollar they've both got the same call, though. (2) - this is what separates the big dogs from those below them - not just the signal and hold, but the 'primary' guy taking it, which was either pregamed or a natural part of their repetroire.

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

Foul or a player getting out jumped?

Agree with Clark Kellogg - a ticky-tack call.

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

Marginal/incidental contact or charge?

I thought it was odd that all three guys passed on this. Centre has a PERFECT look. It wasn't a train wreck, but the defender obviously had position and got knocked over.

[Juulie Downs]

Originally Posted by canuckrefguy

Agree with Clark Kellogg - a ticky-tack call.

I'm really disappointed with Kellogg this year. I have found him to be pretty good in the past, and not all that bad from a ref's point of view, but this year, he's been a lot less understanding about basic rules and vocabulary. Doggone it.

[drofficial]

Boys, if that is not a charge (the one where Jamie held the call), then there is no such thing as a charge. Offesive player straight thru torso of defender with LGP. Easy, easy call. I am sure Jamie had a charge...

[jbduke]

Originally Posted by drofficial

Boys, if that is not a charge (the one where Jamie held the call), then there is no such thing as a charge. Offesive player straight thru torso of defender with LGP. Easy, easy call. I am sure Jamie had a charge...

From the looks of his body language as he finishes his signal and looks at Luckie, I don't think Driscoll liked the call very much. Of course he might have been fine with the call, but just a little nervous about what might have been had Luckie not held his preliminary.

[Adam]

Looks like an easy charge to me.

[Judtech]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Looks like an easy charge to me.

...says my wife when she goes shopping...

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by drofficial

Boys, if that is not a charge (the one where Jamie held the call), then there is no such thing as a charge. Offesive player straight thru torso of defender with LGP. Easy, easy call. I am sure Jamie had a charge...

Like I posted earlier, there is an argument for a blocking foul based on the defender's knee sticking out. Depends if you felt the first contact was to the torso or to the leg.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Like I posted earlier, there is an argument for a blocking foul based on the defender's knee sticking out. Depends if you felt the first contact was to the torso or to the leg.

Hmm. That's what I get for commenting after one view. I think the first contact was with the extended leg/knee, but I think that contact was incidental and had no effect on either player. The contact in the torso, however, was PC foul.

That, of course, is with the benefit of slow motion replay. It's a lot more natural in real time, from the C's angle, to see that outstretched leg and call a block. I can't fault him for that.

[Camron Rust]

Rebounding foul....

Perhaps the call was for the push in the back that moved the VCU player forward a couple of feet before they went up for the ball. Had the Butler player not moved him forward, the Butler player wouldn't have been able to get to the rebound. I'd delay the whistle on that to see if the ball came off in that direction before blowing that a foul.

The style signal provided seemed imply it was for that part of the action.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Rebounding foul....

Perhaps the call was for the push in the back that moved the VCU player forward a couple of feet before they went up for the ball. Had the Butler player not moved him forward, the Butler player wouldn't have been able to get to the rebound. I'd delay the whistle on that to see if the ball came off in that direction before blowing that a foul.

The style signal provided seemed imply it was for that part of the action.

Agreed. Delayed whistle with the correct result.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Rebounding foul....

Perhaps the call was for the push in the back that moved the VCU player forward a couple of feet before they went up for the ball. Had the Butler player not moved him forward,
...

You mean like Kenyan Martin pushed Lamar Odom completely under the basket yesterday?

[7IronRef]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Like I posted earlier, there is an argument for a blocking foul based on the defender's knee sticking out. Depends if you felt the first contact was to the torso or to the leg.

I agree with the fact that the defense stuck out his leg. That was his only option as the offense was making an attempt to change direction - even if it was just enough to try to avoid the defense.

As far as the attempt to shoot, he was going to shoot. He was leading a 1 on 1 break with everyone else trailing the play by 6-10 feet.

Block, shooting FT's

As far as the rebounding play, the Butler player pushed the VCU player on the release. Although I don't think I would have called a foul on this play. Typically the defense has to withstand a great deal of contact by the offense and by the time they stop loosing ground they are no longer able to jump.

The last play, the Butler player did not establish LGP, but I had the advantage of slow motion. The VCU player had started to elevate before the Butler player had LGP. Without replay, I probably call the PC.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by 7IronRef

As far as the rebounding play, the Butler player pushed the VCU player on the release. Although I don't think I would have called a foul on this play. Typically the defense has to withstand a great deal of contact by the offense and by the time they stop loosing ground they are no longer able to jump.

Sorry, but the push created a huge advantage. The defense doesn't have to withstand any contact, especially contact that both displaces and disadvantages them. The only possible (not necessarily valid) complaint is that the whistle was late; but it was the right call.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by 7IronRef

As far as the attempt to shoot, he was going to shoot. He was leading a 1 on 1 break with everyone else trailing the play by 6-10 feet.

Block, shooting FT's

Was going to is not the same as being in the act of shooting at the time of the contact.

I already wrote that attempting to score was his only option on the play due to the location of the other players, but if he hadn't yet begun his shooting motion then he can't be awarded FTs.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by 7IronRef

The last play, the Butler player did not establish LGP, but I had the advantage of slow motion. The VCU player had started to elevate before the Butler player had LGP. Without replay, I probably call the PC.

I completely disagree. He had LGP before the VCU player even took off on his jump stop. Two feet down, facing the offensive player. What do you think he was lacking?

Whether the contact was incidental or not is tough to argue from this angle, IMO, but there's no real question that he had LGP in plenty of time.