Butler-VCU (or VCU-Butler) Conversation

[zeedonk]

I see that we are already discussing the block/charge- sorry for ignoring this thread....
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Anybody have a differing opinion on the block called on Butler midway through the first half? From my great angle on the couch, it looked like Butler established LGP then had a quick bunny hop backwards prior to contact. In any event, the C came in hard with the call on a double whistle for the block.
The L didn't even flinch, other than a fist in the air. No budge, no initial movement, no nothing...

Not that it matters from me, but I thought it was an impressive display of solid mechanics at the highest level on a play that we work so hard to get right both on the floor and through proper mechanics. For those of us less experienced, it's a great lesson in how proper mechanics can keep the rhythm of the game intact without having to explain a blarge, or the L doing anything other than what he's supposed to do- hit the whistle, fist up and check your partners before doing anything.

Make the call, keep the game going and most people don't even know what kind of game management problems were just avioded.

Z

[canuckrefguy]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

To me, Luckie, in the Lead, had the better look.

Because Driscoll was behind the play. If he's in position, it's still better for C to take the call IMO

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by canuckrefguy

Because Driscoll was behind the play. If he's in position, it's still better for C to take the call IMO

On most fast breaks the C is gonna be behind the play and closer to the ballhandler. The Lead has an open look on both players.

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by jbduke

I'm assuming you went to Maryland. If not, please ignore the rest of this post.

Three weeks ago, Shaka Smart didn't gather his team to watch the selection show because he had no expectation that they'd even be invited.

VCU's run has been nothing short of amazing, and I would be thrilled if it lasted two more games. But do five wins in a row make them a "MUCH better basketball program" than Maryland? There's an extremely strong likelihood that the person coaching VCU next season is someone that even most passionate college hoops fans haven't heard of yet. I think that is a much more accurate measure of the difference between VCU's program and Maryland's program right now.

Well, I said "at any point" and as someone else said, this year VCU made the Final Four and Maryland didn't even make the NIT. And to a larger extent, I do believe that VCU's program is in better shape relatively speaking.

In the past 5 years, VCU has made the same number of tournament appearances as Maryland and this year advanced much further than Maryland has since winning the title. Maryland has not been past the 2nd round in the past 8 years and has had one of the worst post championship runs of any NCAA champ of the last 20 years.

And as good of a game coach as Gary Williams is, he can't/won't recruit to save his life. Despite playing in a high profile conference, having great facilities, and being located right in the middle of one of the most talent rich areas in the country, Maryland has let all of the momentum of a NCAA title fall to the wayside.

VCU, on the other hand, has consistently played well for the last 10 years, put 3 young coaches on the map, and has, this year in particular, pretty much maximized their resources. So as an alum of both schools, I stand by my statement. In terms of making the most of their situations, VCU's basketball program is running circles around Maryland's right now.

Now back to discussing block/charges and all that good stuff.

[canuckrefguy]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

On most fast breaks the C is gonna be behind the play and closer to the ballhandler. The Lead has an open look on both players.

"Most"? Don't know about that.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by VaTerp

I am from Richmond, went to grad shool at VCU, and did work for the Jeff Capel show.

Hey VaTerp, I work with Jeff's mom. Talked to her the other day. looks like Jeff might take a year off before returning to coaching. Jeff Sr. might be doing the same. Jeff Jr. is moving back to NC. Thought you might be interested.

[APG]

Here's the play that zeedonk is referring to:



Block or charge?

[APG]

Foul or a player getting out jumped?

[APG]

Marginal/incidental contact or charge?

[vbzebra]

charge on both and nothing on rebound foul. Anyone else? Granted, I'm not on the floor for that game, but hey, you asked, and i gave my .01 cents

[CLH]

Originally Posted by vbzebra

charge on both and nothing on rebound foul. Anyone else? Granted, I'm not on the floor for that game, but hey, you asked, and i gave my .01 cents

I concur...

[Judtech]

Kudos to the LEAD for following the "Double whistle not double preliminary" rule!!
Here is my question, and Im drawing a blank. IMO it looked like the VCU player started into his 'shooting/lay up' motion prior to making contact with the Butler player. However, when contact was made IMO again the Butler player was 'there'.
So my question is: Does the shooting motion supercede LGP or vice versa? I'm sure it is an easy answer but like I said, drawing a blank

[canuckrefguy]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

Block or charge?

The Butler guy was late - not by a lot, but still late. If the VCU player starts his layup before the defender "is there", it's a block.

Two things on that play - (1) excellent lead positioning by Luckie, he's boxing in the play close as opposed to being on the sideline; Driscoll is behind the play, so Luckie has a better look, even though he gives up the call. I'd bet my bottom dollar they've both got the same call, though. (2) - this is what separates the big dogs from those below them - not just the signal and hold, but the 'primary' guy taking it, which was either pregamed or a natural part of their repetroire.

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

Foul or a player getting out jumped?

Agree with Clark Kellogg - a ticky-tack call.

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

Marginal/incidental contact or charge?

I thought it was odd that all three guys passed on this. Centre has a PERFECT look. It wasn't a train wreck, but the defender obviously had position and got knocked over.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

Here's the play that zeedonk is referring to:

YouTube - Fast Break Block/Charge Play VCU vs. Butler

Block or charge?

Gathering for or starting the shooting motion does not "supersede" the defender's LGP, meaning the defender still has opportunity to beat the offensive player to the spot.

If that play is a block it would be b/c contact was with the defender's right knee which appears to be outside his natural stance, not because he wasn't there first or didn't have LGP.

[Juulie Downs]

Originally Posted by canuckrefguy

Agree with Clark Kellogg - a ticky-tack call.

I'm really disappointed with Kellogg this year. I have found him to be pretty good in the past, and not all that bad from a ref's point of view, but this year, he's been a lot less understanding about basic rules and vocabulary. Doggone it.