Butler-VCU (or VCU-Butler) Conversation

[APG]

Foul or a player getting out jumped?

[APG]

Marginal/incidental contact or charge?

[vbzebra]

charge on both and nothing on rebound foul. Anyone else? Granted, I'm not on the floor for that game, but hey, you asked, and i gave my .01 cents

[CLH]

Originally Posted by vbzebra

charge on both and nothing on rebound foul. Anyone else? Granted, I'm not on the floor for that game, but hey, you asked, and i gave my .01 cents

I concur...

[canuckrefguy]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

Block or charge?

The Butler guy was late - not by a lot, but still late. If the VCU player starts his layup before the defender "is there", it's a block.

Two things on that play - (1) excellent lead positioning by Luckie, he's boxing in the play close as opposed to being on the sideline; Driscoll is behind the play, so Luckie has a better look, even though he gives up the call. I'd bet my bottom dollar they've both got the same call, though. (2) - this is what separates the big dogs from those below them - not just the signal and hold, but the 'primary' guy taking it, which was either pregamed or a natural part of their repetroire.

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

Foul or a player getting out jumped?

Agree with Clark Kellogg - a ticky-tack call.

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

Marginal/incidental contact or charge?

I thought it was odd that all three guys passed on this. Centre has a PERFECT look. It wasn't a train wreck, but the defender obviously had position and got knocked over.

[Juulie Downs]

Originally Posted by canuckrefguy

Agree with Clark Kellogg - a ticky-tack call.

I'm really disappointed with Kellogg this year. I have found him to be pretty good in the past, and not all that bad from a ref's point of view, but this year, he's been a lot less understanding about basic rules and vocabulary. Doggone it.

[drofficial]

Boys, if that is not a charge (the one where Jamie held the call), then there is no such thing as a charge. Offesive player straight thru torso of defender with LGP. Easy, easy call. I am sure Jamie had a charge...

[jbduke]

Originally Posted by drofficial

Boys, if that is not a charge (the one where Jamie held the call), then there is no such thing as a charge. Offesive player straight thru torso of defender with LGP. Easy, easy call. I am sure Jamie had a charge...

From the looks of his body language as he finishes his signal and looks at Luckie, I don't think Driscoll liked the call very much. Of course he might have been fine with the call, but just a little nervous about what might have been had Luckie not held his preliminary.

[Adam]

Looks like an easy charge to me.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by drofficial

Boys, if that is not a charge (the one where Jamie held the call), then there is no such thing as a charge. Offesive player straight thru torso of defender with LGP. Easy, easy call. I am sure Jamie had a charge...

Like I posted earlier, there is an argument for a blocking foul based on the defender's knee sticking out. Depends if you felt the first contact was to the torso or to the leg.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Like I posted earlier, there is an argument for a blocking foul based on the defender's knee sticking out. Depends if you felt the first contact was to the torso or to the leg.

Hmm. That's what I get for commenting after one view. I think the first contact was with the extended leg/knee, but I think that contact was incidental and had no effect on either player. The contact in the torso, however, was PC foul.

That, of course, is with the benefit of slow motion replay. It's a lot more natural in real time, from the C's angle, to see that outstretched leg and call a block. I can't fault him for that.

[7IronRef]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Like I posted earlier, there is an argument for a blocking foul based on the defender's knee sticking out. Depends if you felt the first contact was to the torso or to the leg.

I agree with the fact that the defense stuck out his leg. That was his only option as the offense was making an attempt to change direction - even if it was just enough to try to avoid the defense.

As far as the attempt to shoot, he was going to shoot. He was leading a 1 on 1 break with everyone else trailing the play by 6-10 feet.

Block, shooting FT's

As far as the rebounding play, the Butler player pushed the VCU player on the release. Although I don't think I would have called a foul on this play. Typically the defense has to withstand a great deal of contact by the offense and by the time they stop loosing ground they are no longer able to jump.

The last play, the Butler player did not establish LGP, but I had the advantage of slow motion. The VCU player had started to elevate before the Butler player had LGP. Without replay, I probably call the PC.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Juulie Downs

I'm really disappointed with Kellogg this year. I have found him to be pretty good in the past, and not all that bad from a ref's point of view, but this year, he's been a lot less understanding about basic rules and vocabulary. Doggone it.

He also seems to feel like he has to talk CONSTANTLY.

Steve Kerr can barely get a word in but when he does, his comments are far more interesting.

Do us a favor tonight, Clark. Don't talk just because you can.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by vbzebra

charge on both and nothing on rebound foul. Anyone else? Granted, I'm not on the floor for that game, but hey, you asked, and i gave my .01 cents

I agree on all three counts.

Originally Posted by Judtech

Kudos to the LEAD for following the "Double whistle not double preliminary" rule!!
Here is my question, and Im drawing a blank. IMO it looked like the VCU player started into his 'shooting/lay up' motion prior to making contact with the Butler player. However, when contact was made IMO again the Butler player was 'there'.
So my question is: Does the shooting motion supercede LGP or vice versa? I'm sure it is an easy answer but like I said, drawing a blank

It is not the beginning of the shooting motion or the try which matters. It is the point at which the offensive player becomes airborne, and airborne is defined as BOTH feet having left the playing surface.
Until that time the defender may obtain any spot on the court and draw a charge, with the exception of directly under the basket at the NCAA level.

Originally Posted by canuckrefguy

The Butler guy was late - not by a lot, but still late. If the VCU player starts his layup before the defender "is there", it's a block.

I have to disagree with your understanding of the college rule. As I just wrote above, the start of the layup has nothing to do with it. I suggest that you take a few moments and dig into the NCAA rulesbook, and then see if your position changes. Of course, what you have written is the way that the NBA does it. I have no idea how FIBA handles these situations.

[Nevadaref]

BTW on the block/charge play involving #23 of VCU and Vanzant of Butler, I don't believe that the VCU player is in the act of shooting at the time of the contact. He has gathered the ball, but has made no motion that I can see which involves starting to throw for goal. In the super-slow one can see that he isn't even looking at the ring at the time of the contact. It isn't until afterwards that he squares himself and shoots.