2011 Tournament Discussion Redux

[JugglingReferee]

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

The rule is no different in college. IMO, it should not have been a BC violation. However I think he may have travelled. I need to see the replay again.

You are wise beyond your years. I had the same thought in real time. After looking at the replay in the other thread, there was no OOB violation by rule but he did travel after the play. The first foot down( the one on the center line) was established as the pivot foot when the second foot landed after that. He then picked up his pivot foot and put it back down in the front court. He got the proper result on the play....violation... but for the wrong reason.

[grunewar]

Ya gotta admit, with all the "controversies" going on in March Madness, the tournament was made for:

1) Fans,
2) Arm Chair Officials,
3) Critics,
4) TV,
5) Instant Replay,
6) Uniformed Announcers,
7) The internet (Forums, Chat Rooms, YouTube)
plus many more......

Great stuff!

And now, back to our regularly scheduled banter. Carry on!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Just saw the clip on my SportsCentre.

I timed the play as did the sports report. They had 3.9s and I have 4.02s. That's not even close to being a violation.

Horrible call.

How horrible will be decided if we don't see that official's name on a game report next weekend.

Supposedly, this is one of the criteria the NCAA uses to sort out who advances.

[biz]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

You are wise beyond your years. I had the same thought in real time. After looking at the replay in the other thread, there was no OOB violation by rule but he did travel after the play. The first foot down( the one on the center line) was established as the pivot foot when the second foot landed after that. He then picked up his pivot foot and put it back down in the front court. He got the proper result on the play....violation... but for the wrong reason.

Very true that it appears that he traveled, but in real time it's tough to say when he controls the ball. He appears to fumble the ball slightly with the one hand catch. While it is clear, when the video is slowed down, that he traveled it was far less clear at full speed.

It doesn't change the fact that this was not a backcourt violation which was the call. That is a tough miss in the closing seconds of a NCAA tournament game, and furthermore it is not a "judgement" call it was an improper application of the rules. I would love to hear what Mr. Adams has to say about this call, but unfortunately I don't think we'll hear from him on this because very few people realize that it was the improper call.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

how can anybody say this is a bad call? Assuming the 4.8 stated above is accurate, what do we expect? If the arm count doesn't match, it is a flaw, sure. But did that have any impact on this particular play? Was the thrower counting the swings out of the corner of his eye thinking "i still have time." i doubt it.

+1

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

+1

The accepted time so far as per different sources seems to be around 4.3 to 4.4 seconds.

Just saying....

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

The accepted time so far as per different sources seems to be around 4.3 to 4.4 seconds.

Just saying....

What sources? I gave you two that were much less than that.

The only accepted time would be from the NCAA, and they're not going to say anything because it would acknowledge that the official screwed up and had an unacceptable effect on the game.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

What sources?

The only accepted time would be from the NCAA, and they're not going to say anything because it would acknowledge that the official screwed up and had an unacceptable effect on the game.

Yahoo sports and one of the big NY papers....

And as I already said, if you don't see Cartmell's name in a box score next weekend, you'll know what the NCAA thought of the call.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Yahoo sports and one of the big NY papers....

And as I already said, if you don't see Cartmell's name in a box score next weekend, you'll know what the NCAA thought of the call.

No, actually we won't. If we do see his name, we will know they were okay with it, but not seeing his name doesn't mean this one call is why he didn't move on. It may be but it may not.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Yahoo sports and one of the big NY papers....

And as I already said, if you don't see Cartmell's name in a box score next weekend, you'll know what the NCAA thought of the call.

Disagree.

If that was his only bad call, then he would grade better than other officials, and then would move on by virtue of sucking less.

You're usually known for fact seeking. The best way to know what the NCAA thinks of that call is to hear directly from Adams about that call - and by that I mean either a "correct" or an "incorrect". Anything other than that is supposition.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

He aborted his 5th stroke to blow his whistle and looked like, to me at least, that he thought about granting the time-out and then decided to call the 5-second violation.

Me personally, I'm granting the time-out in that situation.

[Raymond]

I didn't see any of the FSU/ND game. What caused all the T's to be called?

[Jburt]

Did Texas have any TO remaining?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jburt

Did Texas have any TO remaining?

Not relevant to the discussion at hand, really. If they didn't, the proper call would have been to grant the TO and charge the TF (assuming it was requested in time) rather than ignore it and charge the 5 second violation.