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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 09, 2011, 11:38am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eg-italy View Post
1)I'm not a fan of this ruling, but it's not enforced as you believe. When judging a possible held ball there's an interval of time when both players have (almost) control of the ball: the official must wait and see if all conditions for a held ball are present (no one can get ball control without undue roughness, for instance). If in that interval of time one of the players involved steps OOB, FIBA requires that a held ball is called. That's all.

2)Would you call a held ball as soon as a player puts both hands on the ball in control of an opponent? I guess you won't; we won't either, even if the first player steps OOB before the "initial" conditions for a held ball are present.
1) It's enforced exactly as I said above. You don't have dual control but you treat it like there was dual control. That illogical imo.

2) No, but if that player was OOB when he first puts both hands on the ball, we do call a violation on him. We also call a violation on that player if he steps OOB anytime after he first puts both hands on the ball but before dual control is attained. Under FIBA rules, you don't.

It is what it is....a FIBA rule....but it just isn't logical to me.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 09, 2011, 11:42am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
Frankly, I think that's how we call it in NFHS, too. If he steps OOB before both players have secured the ball, OOB. If he does it after, even if my whistle hasn't blown yet, held ball.
Nope, frankly that's not how it's supposed to be called under NFHS rules. I think you're calling it completely wrong by rule. You're granting a held ball before dual possesssion is attained. You're calling a held ball when a violation has occurred.

It's a simple call. See post #2 by BktBallRef.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 09, 2011, 12:30pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
Frankly, I think that's how we call it in NFHS, too. If he steps OOB before both players have secured the ball, OOB. If he does it after, even if my whistle hasn't blown yet, held ball.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee View Post
Nope, frankly that's not how it's supposed to be called under NFHS rules. I think you're calling it completely wrong by rule. You're granting a held ball before dual possesssion is attained. You're calling a held ball when a violation has occurred.
How is he wrong? He says the OOB is after both players have secured the ball.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 09, 2011, 01:06pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eg-italy View Post
[INDENT]I'm not a fan of this ruling, but it's not enforced as you believe. When judging a possible held ball there's an interval of time when both players have (almost) control of the ball: the official must wait and see if all conditions for a held ball are present (no one can get ball control without undue roughness, for instance). If in that interval of time one of the players involved steps OOB, FIBA requires that a held ball is called. That's all.
There's the post I've been referring to, JAR. No dual possession.Almost control isn't control. But while waiting to see if dual possession is obtained, if one player steps OOB you still call the held ball under FIBA rules. We don't. We call a violation because there wasn't dual control when the player stepped OOB while touching the ball.

That was my point all along.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 09, 2011, 01:36pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee View Post
1) It's enforced exactly as I said above. You don't have dual control but you treat it like there was dual control. That illogical imo.
How many FIBA games did you see?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee View Post
2) No, but if that player was OOB when he first puts both hands on the ball, we do call a violation on him. We also call a violation on that player if he steps OOB anytime after he first puts both hands on the ball but before dual control is attained. Under FIBA rules, you don't.

It is what it is....a FIBA rule....but it just isn't logical to me.
Your concept of dual possession is, approximately, "when no player can get control without undue roughness", at least in that case play. Well, FIBA just adds something to the concept of dual control.

Is it logical to you that the CE "failure to award merited free throws" can lead to a five or six point play? You fail to award bonus free throws to team A, which scores a three point field goal (maybe with a foul): three points, error correction (other two points) and possible bonus free throw. This makes 5 or 6 instead of 2. To me it isn't logical. Under FIBA rules this can only lead to a three or four point play, because in this case the error is disregarded.

Every rule set has its not so logical parts.

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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 09, 2011, 01:56pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee View Post
Nope, frankly that's not how it's supposed to be called under NFHS rules. I think you're calling it completely wrong by rule. You're granting a held ball before dual possesssion is attained. You're calling a held ball when a violation has occurred.

It's a simple call. See post #2 by BktBallRef.
So if, in the time between when my brain recognizes a held ball has occured and my whistle blows, B1 steps OOB, you're saying I should call the violation rather than the held ball for which my whistle was about to blow when B1 stepped on the line?
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 09, 2011, 02:20pm
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Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
So if, in the time between when my brain recognizes a held ball has occured and my whistle blows, B1 steps OOB, you're saying I should call the violation rather than the held ball for which my whistle as about to blow when B1 stepped on the line?
No, I'm saying that if you're saying that we call held balls the same way that FIBA is, you're completely wrong by rule. The situation that you're discussing above is not the same situation that eg-italy was talking about. He's talking about calling a held ball by FIBA rule when one opponent steps OOB while touching the ball and there never was dual possession at the time the player stepped OOB. Iow, a held ball never occurred before the player stepped OOB.

Our rules and the FIBA rules...as per the discussion in this thread.. are completely different.

That's what I'm saying.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 09, 2011, 02:25pm
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Originally Posted by eg-italy View Post
How many FIBA games did you see?
What has that got to do with anything if I understand the difference between the two rulesets?
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 09, 2011, 02:27pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee View Post
No, I'm saying that if you're saying that we call held balls the same way that FIBA is, you're completely wrong by rule. The situation that you're discussing above is not the same situation that eg-italy was talking about. He's talking about calling a held ball by FIBA rule when one opponent steps OOB while touching the ball and there never was dual possession at the time the player stepped OOB. Iow, a held ball never occurred before the player stepped OOB.

Our rules and the FIBA rules...as per the discussion in this thread.. are completely different.

That's what I'm saying.
Then I misread him; I thought he was calling it my way. Not the first time I've misread someone.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 09, 2011, 02:34pm
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Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
Then I misread him; I thought he was calling it my way. Not the first time I've misread someone.
I thought maybe you did. I know you knew the correct NFHS and NCAA rule.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 09, 2011, 03:07pm
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Force Out ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by JugglingReferee View Post
Not on his own accord.
Back when I was young enough to play playground basketball we had a "force out rule". I'm not sure that I remember it being called in a "real" game. Was this ever a real NFHS rule, or is it one of those playground myths?
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 09, 2011, 03:14pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee View Post
What has that got to do with anything if I understand the difference between the two rulesets?
You think you know perfectly how that rule is enforced. Actually you don't.

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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 09, 2011, 04:16pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eg-italy View Post
You think you know perfectly how that rule is enforced. Actually you don't.
I went by YOUR description of how FIBA enforces their rule. Are you telling me that you lied to me and I shouldn't believe you?

OK. Got it.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 09, 2011, 04:17pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Back when I was young enough to play playground basketball we had a "force out rule". I'm not sure that I remember it being called in a "real" game. Was this ever a real NFHS rule, or is it one of those playground myths?
Never an NFHS or NCAA rule. It was an old NBA rule though.
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