AP or OOB

[so cal lurker]

From a pick-up game:

A1 and B1 are going after a loose ball. Both players have their hands on the ball,but you have not yet decided it warrants a held ball call. A1 steps on the line. OOB to B (as A1 caused the ball to be OOB) or AP (b/c there was joint possession at the time the ball attained OOB status).

Does rule set matter?

[BktBallRef]

If either player is OOB, it's a violation, not a held ball.

[stiffler3492]

I had a play almost like this...

A1 and B1 are going for a rebound. Both players jump, catch the ball, and both players land out of bounds at the same time. Had to think about it for a split second, but went to the arrow.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by so cal lurker

From a pick-up game:

A1 and B1 are going after a loose ball. Both players have their hands on the ball,but you have not yet decided it warrants a held ball call. A1 steps on the line. OOB to B (as A1 caused the ball to be OOB) or AP (b/c there was joint possession at the time the ball attained OOB status).

Does rule set matter?

No, the rule set doesn't matter.

The OOB "power" doesn't transfer from A1 to the ball and then to B1.

Where I get this play often is after a shot attempt and the rebound goes towards the end line. A4 and B4 both go for the ball and I'd say a dozen times per year, one of the players touches the end line or beyond while touching the ball in an attempt to gain full control - all the while their opponent is doing the same thing, but inbounds.

[eg-italy]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

No, the rule set doesn't matter.

The OOB "power" doesn't transfer from A1 to the ball and then to B1.

Where I get this play often is after a shot attempt and the rebound goes towards the end line. A4 and B4 both go for the ball and I'd say a dozen times per year, one of the players touches the end line or beyond while touching the ball in an attempt to gain full control - all the while their opponent is doing the same thing, but inbounds.

You should know that the rule set matters.

Fiba rules:

23.2.3 If a player moves to out-of-bounds or to his backcourt during a held ball, a jump ball situation occurs.

What they mean for "during" is precisely the situation you are describing.

Ciao

[JugglingReferee]

Yes, eg-i, you're right.

But when answering these guys, I assume these guys don't want a FIBA ruling. LOL

[eg-italy]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Yes, eg-i, you're right.

But when answering these guys, I assume these guys don't want a FIBA ruling. LOL

They don't know what they're missing.

Ciao

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Yes, eg-i, you're right.

But when answering these guys, I assume these guys don't want a FIBA ruling. LOL

How can he be right? He said "during a held ball". The situation that you described occurred before a held ball("while touching the ball in an attempt to gain full control"...in your words) . They're completely different situations, aren't they?

Pizza and lasagna...

[just another ref]

Nothing happens during a held ball. When a held ball happens, the ball is dead.

[so cal lurker]

Thx all . . . am I gonna mention FIBA at the gym? . . . nah, don't think so . . . (well, maybe to the other rule geek . . .)

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

How can he be right? He said "during a held ball". The situation that you described occurred before a held ball("while touching the ball in an attempt to gain full control"...in your words) . They're completely different situations, aren't they?

Pizza and lasagna...

Originally Posted by just another ref

Nothing happens during a held ball. When a held ball happens, the ball is dead.

JAR is correct.

But most people describe the action that precedes the judgment of the ball becoming dead as being "during a held ball".

The FIBA rule is that they want the held ball to be enforced, rather than a violation. So their interp is that once a player commits a violation by stepping out of bounds or by returning to his backcourt, all the while two opponents are still tugging at the ball (but not yet untoward), the play is automatically deemed to be a held ball.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

But FIBA people describe the action that precedes the judgment of the ball becoming dead as being "during a held ball".

The FIBA rule is that they want the held ball to be enforced, rather than a violation. So their interp is that once a player commits a violation by stepping out of bounds or by returning to his backcourt, all the while two opponents are still tugging at the ball (but not yet untoward), the play is automatically deemed to be a held ball.

Fixed it for ya.

Sooooo....if one opponent steps OOB while tugging at the ball, even though one player never gained control of the ball and the ball might even subsequently come loose without there ever being dual possession attained, the FIBA call is a held ball even though there never was a held ball.

Got it.

Great logic. Have a held ball even when there never was a held ball.

Gee, I can't figure out why that particular logic has never caught on in the other rulesets.

Stoopid FIBA rulesmaker monkeys.

[eg-italy]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Sooooo....if one opponent steps OOB while tugging at the ball, even though one player never gained control of the ball and the ball might even subsequently come loose without there ever being dual possession attained, the FIBA call is a held ball even though there never was a held ball.

Got it.

Great logic. Have a held ball even when there never was a held ball.

Gee, I can't figure out why that particular logic has never caught on in the other rulesets.

Stoopid FIBA rulesmaker monkeys.

I'm not a fan of this ruling, but it's not enforced as you believe. When judging a possible held ball there's an interval of time when both players have (almost) control of the ball: the official must wait and see if all conditions for a held ball are present (no one can get ball control without undue roughness, for instance). If in that interval of time one of the players involved steps OOB, FIBA requires that a held ball is called. That's all.

If an OOB player touches a ball in control of a player in bounds it's simply OOB, of course. Would you call a held ball as soon as a player puts both hands on the ball in control of an opponent? I guess you won't; we won't either, even if the first player steps OOB before the "initial" conditions for a held ball are present.

Ciao

[Adam]

Originally Posted by eg-italy

I'm not a fan of this ruling, but it's not enforced as you believe. When judging a possible held ball there's an interval of time when both players have (almost) control of the ball: the official must wait and see if all conditions for a held ball are present (no one can get ball control without undue roughness, for instance). If in that interval of time one of the players involved steps OOB, FIBA requires that a held ball is called. That's all.

If an OOB player touches a ball in control of a player in bounds it's simply OOB, of course. Would you call a held ball as soon as a player puts both hands on the ball in control of an opponent? I guess you won't; we won't either, even if the first player steps OOB before the "initial" conditions for a held ball are present.

Ciao

Frankly, I think that's how we call it in NFHS, too. If he steps OOB before both players have secured the ball, OOB. If he does it after, even if my whistle hasn't blown yet, held ball.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Fixed it for ya.

Sooooo....if one opponent steps OOB while tugging at the ball, even though one player never gained control of the ball and the ball might even subsequently come loose without there ever being dual possession attained, the FIBA call is a held ball even though there never was a held ball.

Got it.

Great logic. Have a held ball even when there never was a held ball.

Gee, I can't figure out why that particular logic has never caught on in the other rulesets.

Stoopid FIBA rulesmaker monkeys.

Basketball is played inbounds. When a player goes OB, they have an advantage. However, FIBA believes (my speculation here) that "during the held ball", a player might be OB, but not on his own accord and without undue roughness. So, they've decided to go beyond an A.R. and just make it a rule.

If so, it does nothing except increase consistency.