Some weird situations and a general Q about training

[dfscott]

During our recent rec league basketball finals, we had 3 crazy situations, all within the last 2 minutes of the game. I dug around on the internet looking for answers to these, but I couldn't find anything definitive (only armchair referee opinions). You guys were able to help me last time, so I'm hoping you can bail me out again!

These are 4th-6th graders, but the rules are loosely based on NCAA rules (our head official knows those rules but isn't as familiar with NFHS rules). One key difference is that we do not allow backcourt defense until there are 2 minutes left in the game. I want to get some opinions on these calls (not to protest, just to learn for next year - my wife is the league director).

1) With 1:50 left, A1 has inbounded the ball to A2 after B's score. B1 attempts to steal the ball from A2 as soon as it is inbounded, and the official blows the whistle just as B1 gains possession and signals illegal backcourt defense. The official then realizes the clock had ticked below 2 minutes so the backcourt defense is legal. She reverses her call, but gives the ball back to A to inbound, while the B coach argues that B should retain possession.

2) With ~30 seconds left, A1 is dribbling from center court towards the corner with B1 agressively defending. A1 swings wide and the official on that side can't get out of the way quickly enough. A1 runs into the referee, falls, and loses the ball out of bounds. Referee rules that since it was his fault, A get the ball out of bounds. B argues that the player lost the ball out of bounds and it's the player's job to avoid the referees.

3) A1 passes to A2 just inside the frontcourt with about 4 seconds left in the game. A2 then drops to the floor face down in the fetal position, covering the ball, letting the clock run out. Coach B argues that falling to the floor with possession should be an automatic travel. Coach A claims that even though A3's knees and arms were on the ground, his toes were still contacting the ground so he didn't move his pivot foot, thus no travel.

And it's not really a rules question, but I'll ask here anyway: what's the best way to get your refs trained? Sitting down and reading the rule book doesn't really prepare you for real game situations (not to mention, I could never get them to do it). I'm sure there are videos but I don't know which ones are good. Plus this is a church rec league, so I can't spend much money. However, I really think we need a bit more instruction than "put this striped shirt on and blow this whistle when you see something bad." It really helps to combat the boo-birds when your officials act like that know what they're doing.

[bob jenkins]

1) Inadvertant whistle. Since B had the ball before the whistle, the ball goes to B.

2) The referee is part of the floor. B's ball.

3) It's traveling to touch the floor with other than the foot or hand while holding the ball.

Seems like the officials were 0 for 3.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by dfscott

During our recent rec league basketball finals, we had 3 crazy situations, all within the last 2 minutes of the game. I dug around on the internet looking for answers to these, but I couldn't find anything definitive (only armchair referee opinions). You guys were able to help me last time, so I'm hoping you can bail me out again!

These are 4th-6th graders, but the rules are loosely based on NCAA rules (our head official knows those rules but isn't as familiar with NFHS rules). One key difference is that we do not allow backcourt defense until there are 2 minutes left in the game. I want to get some opinions on these calls (not to protest, just to learn for next year - my wife is the league director).

1) With 1:50 left, A1 has inbounded the ball to A2 after B's score. B1 attempts to steal the ball from A2 as soon as it is inbounded, and the official blows the whistle just as B1 gains possession and signals illegal backcourt defense. The official then realizes the clock had ticked below 2 minutes so the backcourt defense is legal. She reverses her call, but gives the ball back to A to inbound, while the B coach argues that B should retain possession.

2) With ~30 seconds left, A1 is dribbling from center court towards the corner with B1 agressively defending. A1 swings wide and the official on that side can't get out of the way quickly enough. A1 runs into the referee, falls, and loses the ball out of bounds. Referee rules that since it was his fault, A get the ball out of bounds. B argues that the player lost the ball out of bounds and it's the player's job to avoid the referees.

3) A1 passes to A2 just inside the frontcourt with about 4 seconds left in the game. A2 then drops to the floor face down in the fetal position, covering the ball, letting the clock run out. Coach B argues that falling to the floor with possession should be an automatic travel. Coach A claims that even though A3's knees and arms were on the ground, his toes were still contacting the ground so he didn't move his pivot foot, thus no travel.

And it's not really a rules question, but I'll ask here anyway: what's the best way to get your refs trained? Sitting down and reading the rule book doesn't really prepare you for real game situations (not to mention, I could never get them to do it). I'm sure there are videos but I don't know which ones are good. Plus this is a church rec league, so I can't spend much money. However, I really think we need a bit more instruction than "put this striped shirt on and blow this whistle when you see something bad." It really helps to combat the boo-birds when your officials act like that know what they're doing.

(1) is an IW. Give the ball back to B if they possessed it at the time of the whistle.

(2) The official is part of the court. If A was the last to touch (ignoring the official) give it to B.

(3) Travel as long as the player had possession while standing and all the way to the floor. Anything touching other than a hand or foot in this situation is a travel.

I don't really have an answer to the other one with the exception of having a few strong qualified people who can act as trainers and mentors. Do you pay your officials enough to attract people that work higher levels of basketball?

[Adam]

1) It depends if the whistle was blown prior to B1 gaining possession. Even if it was split second before, the ball should go to A. If it was after, B should get the ball. May not seem fair, but "accidental whistles" get resumed with the point of interruption, which in this case would mean the ball would go to whichever team had legal "team control" at the point of the whistle.
2) B should stop arguing in a 4-6th grade game. They're right about the rule, but they're 10 year old kids. Some discretion on the part of the officials isn't really out of order on this play.
3) A player falling to the floor with the ball is a travel. I can't recall if the NCAA has a pivot foot rule on this, though. High school does not. Again, however, see #2.

4) Contact a local assigner and be prepared to pay a little bit more for your officials.

[dfscott]

Thanks for the rapid replies!

To clarify on #1 (based on what I saw from the scorers table): A2 has possession, B1 slaps the ball and they both begin to scramble for control of the ball. During the tussle, whistle blows, then B1 grabs ball.

Given that, it sounds like A's ball, right?

The sad thing is the coach of B is also our head official (I don't think we're going to allow refs to coach next year). As much as he hates people arguing with his calls, he complains more than any of them!

[Adam]

Originally Posted by dfscott

Thanks for the rapid replies!

To clarify on #1 (based on what I saw from the scorers table): A2 has possession, B1 slaps the ball and they both begin to scramble for control of the ball. During the tussle, whistle blows, then B1 grabs ball.

Given that, it sounds like A's ball, right?

Right, and this play doesn't seem fair, but it's the way it is.

Originally Posted by dfscott

The sad thing is the coach of B is also our head official (I don't think we're going to allow refs to coach next year). As much as he hates people arguing with his calls, he complains more than any of them!

Find yourself a new head official. He's a coach, not a ref.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by dfscott

During our recent rec league basketball finals, we had 3 crazy situations, all within the last 2 minutes of the game. I dug around on the internet looking for answers to these, but I couldn't find anything definitive (only armchair referee opinions). You guys were able to help me last time, so I'm hoping you can bail me out again!

These are 4th-6th graders, but the rules are loosely based on NCAA rules (our head official knows those rules but isn't as familiar with NFHS rules). One key difference is that we do not allow back court defense until there are 2 minutes left in the game. I want to get some opinions on these calls (not to protest, just to learn for next year - my wife is the league director).

1) With 1:50 left, A1 has in-bounded the ball to A2 after B's score. B1 attempts to steal the ball from A2 as soon as it is in-bounded, and the official blows the whistle just as B1 gains possession and signals illegal backcourt defense. The official then realizes the clock had ticked below 2 minutes so the back court defense is legal. She reverses her call, but gives the ball back to A to inbound, while the B coach argues that B should retain possession.

2) With ~30 seconds left, A1 is dribbling from center court towards the corner with B1 aggressively defending. A1 swings wide and the official on that side can't get out of the way quickly enough. A1 runs into the referee, falls, and loses the ball out of bounds. Referee rules that since it was his fault, A get the ball out of bounds. B argues that the player lost the ball out of bounds and it's the player's job to avoid the referees.

3) A1 passes to A2 just inside the front court with about 4 seconds left in the game. A2 then drops to the floor face down in the fetal position, covering the ball, letting the clock run out. Coach B argues that falling to the floor with possession should be an automatic travel. Coach A claims that even though A2's knees and arms were on the ground, his toes were still contacting the ground so he didn't move his pivot foot, thus no travel.

And it's not really a rules question, but I'll ask here anyway: what's the best way to get your refs trained? Sitting down and reading the rule book doesn't really prepare you for real game situations (not to mention, I could never get them to do it). I'm sure there are videos but I don't know which ones are good. Plus this is a church rec league, so I can't spend much money. However, I really think we need a bit more instruction than "put this striped shirt on and blow this whistle when you see something bad." It really helps to combat the boo-birds when your officials act like that know what they're doing.

1) This is not a NCAA or NFHS rule, so your local rule would apply, including how to handle errant cases. So what does the rule book for your league say? I interpret the perceived illegal defense to occur when A2 has possession. So I would give the ball back to A. My interp is akin to a coach asking for a TO, and before you whistle the play dead, B steals the ball. We grant the TO and still award A the TI, even though B had the ball at the time of the whistle.

2) B is correct. The officials are part of the floor. It should be B's ball.

3) Fed = travel. NCAA = ? ...... "Pivot toes" = LMAO

Training: Rules meetings. Then philosophy discussion. Then get refs to watch others work games with commentary from an experienced official. Get them to watch video too.

Edit: For the purposes of block/charge and LGP, etc, the FIBA rule is the same as the Fed rule (AFAICT). Having said that, these free FIBA videos are priceless.

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

so your local rule would apply, including how to handle errant cases. So what does the rule book for your league say?

We have similar rules (youth officials too) and run into the "when is a rebound posession," how long can players "fight for the ball," "what if player B1 is running back to get in the play and has his hands up/out in the backcourt and A1 throws a pass that hits him in the back court - was he playing defense?" Shoot me!

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Fed = travel. NCAA = ? ...... "Pivot toes" = LMAO

Better than the infamous "pivot cheek!"

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by grunewar

We have similar rules (youth officials too) and run into the "when is a rebound posession," how long can players "fight for the ball," "what if player B1 is running back to get in the play and has his hands up/out in the backcourt and A1 throws a pass that hits him in the back court - was he playing defense?" Shoot me!

It's actually refreshing to see that my provincial body's rules changes for these youngins isn't the only place that has these controversies.

[jTheUmp]

Originally Posted by grunewar

We have similar rules (youth officials too) and run into the "when is a rebound posession," how long can players "fight for the ball," "what if player B1 is running back to get in the play and has his hands up/out in the backcourt and A1 throws a pass that hits him in the back court - was he playing defense?" Shoot me!

The youth rec league I work has a similar "no pressing" rule that goes like this:
11U: no press at all in the first half. Press allowed in the second half until one team obtains a 10+ point lead. At that point, the leading team cannot press, but the losing team can.

12U - 18U: pressing allowed for any team that isn't leading by 20+ points.

Here's how we interpret it:
If B clearly (in the judgement of the officials) secures possession in their backcourt and makes no attempt to advance toward their frontcourt (in the judgement of the officials), then all of A's players must retreat into their backcourt (B's frontcourt) until B crosses the mid-court line.

If, however, there is any doubt over possession, or if B attempts to advance immediately, all pressing restrictions are off and A is free to play defense in the frontcourt. In other words "If your player runs herself into trouble, that's her fault"

It causes some confusion, to be sure, but I try to make sure I get the coaches (especially the 11U coaches) on my side and ask them to instruct their players to "fall back" when necessary, because they players will listen to their coaches voice and not my voice.

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by jTheUmp

It causes some confusion, to be sure, but I try to make sure I get the coaches (especially the 11U coaches) on my side and ask them to instruct their players to "fall back" when necessary, because they players will listen to their coaches voice and not my voice.

In the younger leagues we sometimes have to blow the whistle to stop the play and remind the players about the rule (in the heat of battle and all). Thankfully, the coaches are pretty good about it.

These next two weeks/weekends are "playoff time" however, so, much good demeanor and sportsmanship will go out the window as the players endeavor to witn their trophies and make the All Star Team, coaches to get their "pay raises" and win "coach of the yr" honors, and for their parents to secure those coveted scholarships for the D1 schools of their choice! (sarc)

Should be fun starting at 6:15 tonight! HOORAH!

[NoFussRef]

Originally Posted by jTheUmp

The youth rec league I work has a similar "no pressing" rule that goes like this:
11U: no press at all in the first half. Press allowed in the second half until one team obtains a 10+ point lead. At that point, the leading team cannot press, but the losing team can.

12U - 18U: pressing allowed for any team that isn't leading by 20+ points.

Here's how we interpret it:
If B clearly (in the judgement of the officials) secures possession in their backcourt and makes no attempt to advance toward their frontcourt (in the judgement of the officials), then all of A's players must retreat into their backcourt (B's frontcourt) until B crosses the mid-court line.

If, however, there is any doubt over possession, or if B attempts to advance immediately, all pressing restrictions are off and A is free to play defense in the frontcourt. In other words "If your player runs herself into trouble, that's her fault"

It causes some confusion, to be sure, but I try to make sure I get the coaches (especially the 11U coaches) on my side and ask them to instruct their players to "fall back" when necessary, because they players will listen to their coaches voice and not my voice.

Our youth league uses NFHS rules with some modifications. As for BC-guarding; 5th grade on up to HS players are allowed full-court press/zone/trap defense until they are ahead by 20pts or more.

Once ahead by 20pts they cannot guard in BC (even "inadvertently") the defense must allow the offense to advance the ball into FC before guarding them. HOWEVER, we allow "transition-defense". This means no BC-guarding on ANY inbound play (such as after a basket or a whistle), but if ball is rebounded, stolen, etc... the defense can still guard them in the BC.

[dfscott]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

1) This is not a NCAA or NFHS rule, so your local rule would apply, including how to handle errant cases. So what does the rule book for your league say?

Unfortunately, it doesn't say anything. I'm the keeper/author of our rule book so that's why I'm trying to get some input.

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Edit: For the purposes of block/charge and LGP, etc, the FIBA rule is the same as the Fed rule (AFAICT). Having said that, these free FIBA videos are priceless.

Thanks for the links to the FIBA video. Luckily, my wife and I are in charge of making rules for the league (with input from other staff members), so if the FIBA videos are all we have access to right now, we can tailor our rules to fit them. I'd much rather have a "different" set of rules that are uniformly and correctly enforced than have a "right" set of the rules that we're confused about.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by dfscott

Unfortunately, it doesn't say anything. I'm the keeper/author of our rule book so that's why I'm trying to get some input.



Thanks for the links to the FIBA video. Luckily, my wife and I are in charge of making rules for the league (with input from other staff members), so if the FIBA videos are all we have access to right now, we can tailor our rules to fit them. I'd much rather have a "different" set of rules that are uniformly and correctly enforced than have a "right" set of the rules that we're confused about.

Personally, for 4-6th graders, I'd use NFHS rules. But in the end, the differences are mostly insignificant. NFHS rules on technical fouls are, IMO, much simpler.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Personally, for 4-6th graders, I'd use NFHS rules. But in the end, the differences are mostly insignificant. NFHS rules on technical fouls are, IMO, much simpler.

I agree. Likely very few people in the US know FIBA rules, so you're better off to stay with rules the kids will play until the end of HS.