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Old Wed Nov 20, 2002, 08:53am
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A1 is dribbling down the floor near the out of bounds on a fast break. B1 is moving down the court parallel to A1 and is between A1 and the basket. A1 cuts hard to the basket and contacts B1. B1 did not alter his course.

I called player control, as I felt that B1 had established and maintained a guarding position all the way down the floor. I am second guessing myself this morning. Was this the correct call?
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Old Wed Nov 20, 2002, 09:08am
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Which direction is B1 facing? Is he running with his shoulders parallel to A1, or is he slide stepping down the floor in order to be in a guarding position? Running full speed with shoulders parallel to the dribbler is not guarding the player. Take the position of the defender's body into consideration when making the call.
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Old Wed Nov 20, 2002, 09:20am
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Who initiated the contact? Sounds to me like you made a good call, don't let the coaches whines of "she wasn't set" bother you one bit. If they say that just say "I know she wasn't coach, but she's not left-handed either" (assuming she's not), by the time they get done wondering about that if they ask you what that meant, just say " nothing but it has as much to do with whether it's a foul as being set".
Seriously, don't penalize the defense for contact initiated by the offensive player, it happens entirely too much, imo.
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Old Wed Nov 20, 2002, 11:18am
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Great Call!!! Go to the head of the block/charge class.
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Old Wed Nov 20, 2002, 11:23am
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Which direction is B1 facing?

Huh? You can have a PC foul, even if B1 has his back to A1.

Running full speed with shoulders parallel to the dribbler is not guarding the player.

Not necessarily true.

Take the position of the defender's body into consideration when making the call.

Again, the direction that B1 is facing has much less (if anything) to do with the call then who initiated contact.

Z
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Old Wed Nov 20, 2002, 11:44am
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Quote:
Originally posted by bigwhistle
Which direction is B1 facing? Is he running with his shoulders parallel to A1, or is he slide stepping down the floor in order to be in a guarding position? Running full speed with shoulders parallel to the dribbler is not guarding the player. Take the position of the defender's body into consideration when making the call.
The concept of legal guarding position is one of the most misunderstood concepts in BB. All it is saying is that; “If the defender is facing and is not moving toward the dribbler and there is any contact on the body of the defender within the normal vertical plane of the defender, the foul is on the dribbler.” The only exception is if the dribbler gets his head and shoulder past the body of the defender before contact is made. Not an easy thing to do. This also applies to a defender of a player without the ball. Except in this case it is a charge and not a PC foul.

B1 is entitled to his space on the floor and to his path. You can not run over someone, run up his back, or hit him sideways just because you have the ball. As described in the original messages this looks like a PC foul to me.
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Old Wed Nov 20, 2002, 01:02pm
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I'm with DeNucci. Great Call!!!

Who initiated contact, and which way the defender is facing are both irrelevant; well, not entirely. The real question is, did the defender have legal guarding position? If at some point the defender's body was facing the dribbler, and both feet were on the ground, from then on the defender is allowed to move his feet unlimitedly, and face whatever as long as he is maintaining his position in the path of the dribbler. "Who initiated contact" is an easy way to sort of review in your mind what happened, but isn't always 100% guaranteed to give the best answer. The question is, did the defender have legal guarding position? In order to be good at this, you must REF THE DEFENSE. Watch the defender first, and foremost. Keep the ball in the corner of your eye, to catch the ball-handling violations, but keep your focus on the defender. If you do that, you will see everything very clearly, and get lots of credit and kudos from fellow refs.

Caveat: Be sure, if you are being evaluated, that you know how your evaluator wants these plays called, or be prepared to deal with the consequences.
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Old Wed Nov 20, 2002, 02:36pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker
Caveat: Be sure, if you are being evaluated, that you know how your evaluator wants these plays called, or be prepared to deal with the consequences.
Rainmaker: I HOPE the evaluator wants these block/charge calls made "by the book," just as you described (ref the defense). Are you sugesting that the evaluator may want them to be called differently (wrongly)? I doubt if you would make the wrong call (on purpose) just because you think an evaluator prefers something else. I am asking this question on all sincerity, but just want to clarify what you meant by this remark.
Marty
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Old Wed Nov 20, 2002, 09:20pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by bigwhistle
Which direction is B1 facing? Is he running with his shoulders parallel to A1, or is he slide stepping down the floor in order to be in a guarding position? Running full speed with shoulders parallel to the dribbler is not guarding the player. Take the position of the defender's body into consideration when making the call.
All good things to consider for the bang-bang block/charge call, but just remember - a PC is any foul by the player with the ball.

A1 is on a fast break, and A2 and B2 are trailing the play, running parallel to each other. A2, trying to block B2 from a potential rebound, runs into B2 - I would hope this is a foul on A2, regardless of legal guarding position.
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Old Fri Nov 22, 2002, 10:13am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Marty Rogers
Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker [B]
Caveat: Be sure, if you are being evaluated, that you know how your evaluator wants these plays called, or be prepared to deal with the consequences.
Rainmaker: I HOPE the evaluator wants these block/charge calls made "by the book," just as you described (ref the defense). Are you sugesting that the evaluator may want them to be called differently (wrongly)? I doubt if you would make the wrong call (on purpose) just because you think an evaluator prefers something else. I am asking this question on all sincerity, but just want to clarify what you meant by this remark.
Marty
Marty --

My assignor DOES want them called by the book, and I always try to do it that way (oh, dear, my nose feels a little brown this morning!). But he was discussing, at the camp I went to, another assignor who works with the local colleges , who prefers to use the travel call on the dribbler, unless it's an "Omigosh". That particular assignor showed up at that camp later that same day and they had an interesting exchange, good humored but disagreeing. From what I gather talking to other refs around here, when I do get to that level, I will have to do it his way. At least when anyone is looking.

[Edited by rainmaker on Nov 22nd, 2002 at 09:17 AM]
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Old Sun Nov 24, 2002, 10:13am
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Is Parellel the same as "facing"

Did the defensive player establish a legal guarding position?...from your post...I do NOT believe the defensive player did....Question: Is running parallel -- FACING the player with the ball?...I do NOT think it is ...FACING to me means that our chests are square to each other...NOT perfectly...we are NOT going to split hairs...but if my initial guarding position puts my chest pointed to the sideline and your chest is pointed to the endline...this is NOT establishing a legal guarding position...

What are your thoughts? ... JO
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Old Sun Nov 24, 2002, 11:36am
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Re: Is Parellel the same as

Quote:
Originally posted by JO
Did the defensive player establish a legal guarding position?...from your post...I do NOT believe the defensive player did....Question: Is running parallel -- FACING the player with the ball?...I do NOT think it is ...FACING to me means that our chests are square to each other...NOT perfectly...we are NOT going to split hairs...but if my initial guarding position puts my chest pointed to the sideline and your chest is pointed to the endline...this is NOT establishing a legal guarding position...

What are your thoughts? ... JO
My thoughts are that a legal guarding position has absolutely nothing to do with this play.Any player is entitled to their position on the floor.If you shove a rebounder from behind,do you ignore the foul because the rebounder didn't establish a legal gaurding position?If both players in this case have established a straight path,neither of them can push the other one out of their path.
The last paragraph of Rec Ref's response covers the situation properly.
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Old Sun Nov 24, 2002, 12:34pm
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Re: Is Parellel the same as

Quote:
Originally posted by JO
this is NOT establishing a legal guarding position...

What are your thoughts? ... JO
A legal guarding postion has nothing to do with this play. Both players are moving in the same direction. The dribbler cannot simply force himself in the the defender who is running down the floor. The dribbler initiated the contact. If the dribbler pushed off with his off arm, is a LGP still required? No. So why is it any different if he uses his body to push through the defender? Is isn't.

If a foul is called, it should be a PC foul.
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Old Sun Nov 24, 2002, 01:12pm
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Re: Is Parellel the same as

Quote:
Originally posted by JO
Did the defensive player establish a legal guarding position?...from your post...I do NOT believe the defensive player did....Question: Is running parallel -- FACING the player with the ball?...I do NOT think it is ...FACING to me means that our chests are square to each other...NOT perfectly...we are NOT going to split hairs...but if my initial guarding position puts my chest pointed to the sideline and your chest is pointed to the endline...this is NOT establishing a legal guarding position...

What are your thoughts? ... JO
Of course I agree with JR & Tony, but to more directly
answer your question - all that is required to establish
guarding position is to have both feet on the floor facing
the offensive player. In this play B1 might have established much prior to the contact. Further, if B1 is
running parallel to A1 and between A1 & the basket then he
is in fact guarding A1.
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Old Sun Nov 24, 2002, 01:35pm
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Re: Re: Is Parellel the same as

Quote:
Originally posted by Dan_ref
[/B]
Of course I agree with JR & Tony, [/B][/QUOTE]Of course,you'd better.We know where you live!
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