table error makes ref look bad

[SCalScoreKeeper]

This is beyond unacceptable for any crew working a state tournament game.Get through the game and report it to the appropriate authority (School AD or tournament assignor).In my games I get the foul recorded while my partners make sure the officials get any subs in.This is because I employ a two part procedure for recording fouls-A.Cross out the personal foul in the players foul count & B.-Record player # committing foul next to the appropriate # team foul.It gives me a second check if a coach wants to question my foul count.
Varsity crews (table and floor) are supposed to be the best of the best (especially at this time of year).At my school we take pride in providing one of the most experienced table crews for our area (2 vice principals who were coaches and myself).I am curious as to the experience level of this crew rsl-were they kids,adults, or a mix?In our state crews (during the playoffs) are supposed to be made up of adults.I worked three road playoff games for my school last week and found only one crew to follow this rule.The other two crews had one adult running the main board and kids doing the book and shot clocks.

[rsl]

The crew was all adults, but young adults in their twenties. I am guessing they hired students from the university hosting the tournament. They were mostly professional. There was a large contingent of referees right behind the table. Our association often shows up to support the refs who get the state bids. That is why I was there. The timer clearly knew some of the referees and was joking with us, maybe more than he should when he was working.

I must the say the quality surprised me a little. It is the first round with eight games lasting all day. This was the last game of the night and I'm sure they were a little tired. Also, only having two refs surprised me as well. I expected three man crews for the state tournament. Overall though, the officials were good and one of the two games I watched was really competitive.

[SCalScoreKeeper]

That's a long day! There is one school in another association out here which schedules its boys and girls basketball tournaments on the same week and same days.These are immediately after Christmas so they get their alumni college students to work the table during the day and their regular crew for the last two games.The game times are 9AM,10:30 AM,12:00 PM,1:30 PM,3:00 PM,4:30 PM,6:00 PM,and 7:30 PM.They would alternate boys and girls games by time.They total 32 games worked in 4 days.
At our school we run boys and girls basketball tournaments but on back to back weeks.My total of games worked is 24 games in six days for those two weeks (Thurs-Sat.)

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by SCalScoreKeeper

This is beyond unacceptable for any crew working a state tournament game.Get through the game and report it to the appropriate authority (School AD or tournament assignor).In my games I get the foul recorded while my partners make sure the officials get any subs in.This is because I employ a two part procedure for recording fouls-A.Cross out the personal foul in the players foul count & B.-Record player # committing foul next to the appropriate # team foul.It gives me a second check if a coach wants to question my foul count.
Varsity crews (table and floor) are supposed to be the best of the best (especially at this time of year).At my school we take pride in providing one of the most experienced table crews for our area (2 vice principals who were coaches and myself).I am curious as to the experience level of this crew rsl-were they kids,adults, or a mix?In our state crews (during the playoffs) are supposed to be made up of adults.I worked three road playoff games for my school last week and found only one crew to follow this rule.The other two crews had one adult running the main board and kids doing the book and shot clocks.

SCalScoreKeeper,

Since you do Varsity games, what's the level of communication like between you & the timer?

How important is it to you that there is that communication between you & the timer?

Concerning those schools that did not follow the rules is there anything that you might be able to do about it?

[SCalScoreKeeper]

Eagle,

I will handle these questions in reverse order!

*Unfortunately there is no consequence for violating this regulation so there is really no point in reporting it.All of the playoff table crews I have seen so far have done an excellent job this year.We do have official ball contracts with Spalding to use certain models of volleyball,basketball,and soccer balls and there is a consequence for violating that regulation (loss of one home playoff contest-if eliminated will carry over to next season).

*The communication between my timer and I is basically limited but essential to the administration of the game.
Pre-Game: Other than the exchange of announcer sheets which contain the rosters and starters of each team it is fairly limited.
In-game:I'll say something if it is off such as team or player fouls or points.Also we'll communicate to make sure he is timing the interval for the right type of time-out.We also both track fouls so we communicate to confirm the fifth foul before hitting the horn.

Since California is a shot clock state the clock operators sit next to each other while the scorers sit next to each other.That basically limits your communication to essential conversations only.

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by SCalScoreKeeper

*The communication between my timer and I is basically limited but essential to the administration of the game.
Pre-Game: Other than the exchange of announcer sheets which contain the rosters and starters of each team it is fairly limited.
In-game:I'll say something if it is off such as team or player fouls or points.Also we'll communicate to make sure he is timing the interval for the right type of time-out.We also both track fouls so we communicate to confirm the fifth foul before hitting the horn.

Since California is a shot clock state the clock operators sit next to each other while the scorers sit next to each other.That basically limits your communication to essential conversations only.

Washington's a shot clock state as well, here for the varsity games at the school I assist at, the shot clock operator is next to the home bench. The Timer & Official Scorer sit in the middle of the table with the other scorer next to the visitors' bench. Of course there is also one sub-V game in the gym before the Varsity games but we've managed to keep the table setup the same.

Unfortunately, for Sub-V games in the secondary gym (where I'm almost always at ) the Official Scorer is next to the home bench, with the timer next to them. The other scorebook is next to the visitors' bench with the shot clock operator. I have tried to change it around to like it is setup in Gym #1 but the coaches want their books next to their benches, which can create discrepancies more times than I care to count.

Unfortunately for the Sub-V games in either gym, it's the timer that handles the AP.

I was curious as to the communication between you & the timer because of the possibility of keeping track of the fouls on the scoreboard.

[SCalScoreKeeper]

Eagle,
He tracks the fouls on a separate sheet from my scorebook.If there is an issue at the first dead ball I will go and we will check foul by foul to make sure the board is correct.At our school too the timer handles AP duties and documents the times it is used.None of our officials have said anything about it-in fact they say we have one of the better varsity crews for our area.Next year tracking the arrow in my book is my personal point of emphasis.

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by SCalScoreKeeper

Eagle,
He tracks the fouls on a separate sheet from my scorebook.If there is an issue at the first dead ball I will go and we will check foul by foul to make sure the board is correct.At our school too the timer handles AP duties and documents the times it is used.None of our officials have said anything about it-in fact they say we have one of the better varsity crews for our area.Next year tracking the arrow in my book is my personal point of emphasis.

And how many awards have you been given?? If one of the better/best in the area, you should be getting some accolades .

I'm a bit surprised about hearing that about the AP since 2-11-7 says: "Record the jump balls for the alternating-possession procedure & be responsible for the possession arrow."

Though that's great to hear that's a POE for you next year as well.

I've heard of an announcer keeping track of fouls on a separate sheet, but not a timer.

My reasoning for stating earlier that eye contact should be made to both the scorer & timer, is that almost all gyms have the scoreboard set up that track either player fouls, team fouls or both, as well as having the bonus signal on the scoreboard. So the foul counts will be posted on the board as well, depending on how confident the timer is in posting that information.

It's few & far between that have the bonus indicators located on the scorers' table. Unless the table is one on those with a scoreboard built in or a table design like we have here. So generally the officials are using the scoreboard for information other than just the time left, even though that's the only official information.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by chseagle

My reasoning for stating earlier that eye contact should be made to both the scorer & timer, is that almost all gyms have the scoreboard set up that track either player fouls, team fouls or both, as well as having the bonus signal on the scoreboard. So the foul counts will be posted on the board as well, depending on how confident the timer is in posting that information.

Here's the thing, chief. I couldn't care less if the foul counts are on the board, because even if it says 6, I'm still going to verify with the scorer before I start administering bonus FTs.

If the timer wants to get that information, it's on him to pay attention. I only care whether the scorer is making eye contact.

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Here's the thing, chief. I couldn't care less if the foul counts are on the board, because even if it says 6, I'm still going to verify with the scorer before I start administering bonus FTs.

If the timer wants to get that information, it's on him to pay attention. I only care whether the scorer is making eye contact.

Snaq,

Depending on the game, that information may be required to be up on the board.

I know during 3A/4A Regionals, we were required to have the player foul counts & team foul counts on the boards, as well as player points & who was currently in the game.

The same can be said for the JUCO tournament that is coming up where I am currently scheduled to work scoreboard/timer.

In cases like that, either the timer will be paying close attention or the timer & scorer will be in constant communication.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Here's the thing, chief. I couldn't care less if the foul counts are on the board, because even if it says 6, I'm still going to verify with the scorer before I start administering bonus FTs.

If the timer wants to get that information, it's on him to pay attention. I only care whether the scorer is making eye contact.

I think it is good for both to hear it and know it. Just makes it less likely that there will be an error as they check they they each heard/have the same thing.

[JRutledge]

All an official can do is report the number and make sure that the scorer is making eye contact with them. I will not report if the scorer is not making eye contact. Usually then you can avoid these situations. After that it is easy to lose the number after many things unless the player sticks out.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by chseagle

Snaq,

Depending on the game, that information may be required to be up on the board.

I know during 3A/4A Regionals, we were required to have the player foul counts & team foul counts on the boards, as well as player points & who was currently in the game.

The same can be said for the JUCO tournament that is coming up where I am currently scheduled to work scoreboard/timer.

In cases like that, either the timer will be paying close attention or the timer & scorer will be in constant communication.

"Required" by whom? Not the rules. If the venue or sactioning body requires it, it's still not my concern. Again, if the timer wants to (or is required to) put the information up on the board, it's up to him to pay attention. I'm not waiting for him and I won't even know if he got the information.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I think it is good for both to hear it and know it. Just makes it less likely that there will be an error as they check they they each heard/have the same thing.

I agree, but I don't think it's the officials' responsibility to ensure the timer is paying attention or to force eye contact with the timer.

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

"Required" by whom? Not the rules. If the venue or sactioning body requires it, it's still not my concern. Again, if the timer wants to (or is required to) put the information up on the board, it's up to him/her to pay attention. I'm not waiting for him/her and I won't even know if s/he got the information.

For the JUCO Tournament, it's required by the league.

Also for WIAA, (RockyRoad & the others can verify) for playoff games the scoreboard is used for not just the time, but for the foul counts.

Nowhere did I say it was required of the timer to make eye contact with the Reporting Official, I said it was a recommendation that the timer also make eye contact. However it makes things so much easier if the timer is also making the eye contact when a foul was reported, to eliminate the chance of a reporting error.

Generally the coaches get their information from the scoreboard, not the scorebooks.

BTW Table crews are not sexist as both men & women work the table.