Would you access a 'T'?

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Unless there were extenuating circumstance, you have no choice but to assess a "T". If the visitors didn't comply with one of the necessary items listed under NFHS rules 10-1-1&2, that's on them.

Whether you were out on the court or not when they screwed up is completely irrelevant. All that matters is that they screwed up. The visitors made the mistake; not the officials. You can't change that fact.

It's got nuthin' to do with being a hardazz either. It's got everything to do with NOT having rules backing to NOT assess a "T".

By rule you have no choice but to not assess the T.

3-2-1 "At least 10 minutes before the scheduled starting time, each team shall supply the official scorer with the name and number of each team member and designate the five starting players. Failure to comply results in a technical foul (see 10-1-1 Penalty)."

The scheduled start time was 8:10 PM. The visiting team has until 8:00 PM to submit its roster. The book was checked 20 minutes before the scheduled start time.

The home team cannot manufacture a T on the visitors by changing the start time in this manner.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

By rule you have no choice but to not assess the T.

3-2-1 "At least 10 minutes before the scheduled starting time, each team shall supply the official scorer with the name and number of each team member and designate the five starting players. Failure to comply results in a technical foul (see 10-1-1 Penalty)."

The scheduled start time was 8:10 PM. The visiting team has until 8:00 PM to submit its roster. The book was checked 20 minutes before the scheduled start time.

The home team cannot manufacture a T on the visitors by changing the start time in this manner.

Something tells me this is from my state. If this is the case then a regional is not hosted by the home team necessarily. It might be two teams from other schools playing. If that is the case as it would be the case where I live, then this was a situation created beyond the control of the participants, but the host school. I would probably give any team a pass in that case for one the schedule affected everyone. I had a similar situation this year with a tournament that started and hour and a half later and I bent over backwards to make sure the information in the book was correct as they only put 10 minutes on the clock before game time. I understand what the rule is, but I think this is where some common sense has to play a role. Also I am talking more about the time frame than a legitimate mistake where the wrong number was submitted and we discovered much later.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

By rule you have no choice but to not assess the T.

3-2-1 "At least 10 minutes before the scheduled starting time, each team shall supply the official scorer with the name and number of each team member and designate the five starting players. Failure to comply results in a technical foul (see 10-1-1 Penalty)."

The scheduled start time was 8:10 PM. The visiting team has until 8:00 PM to submit its roster. The book was checked 20 minutes before the scheduled start time.

The home team cannot manufacture a T on the visitors by changing the start time in this manner.

That's where the extenuating circumstances come in. If you check and find that both teams came out to warm-up at approximately the same time, were given the customary warm-up period for a regional playoff, the clock was set at an agreed time for the warm-up and there was sufficient time for both the visiting and home scorers to enter the correct info, then there is no reason by rule NOT to assess a "T". The officials actually being on the floor is moot under those circumstances rules-wise.

If they rushed the warm-up period, then of course you can use the extenuating circumstances as a valid reason to not asses a "T".

No matter what, you still have to be able to give valid, logical and rules-based reasons to defend your action.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

That's where the extenuating circumstances come in. If you check and find that both teams came out to warm-up at approximately the same time, were given the customary warm-up period for a regional playoff, the clock was set at an agreed time for the warm-up and there was sufficient time for both the visiting and home scorers to enter the correct info, then there is no reason by rule NOT to assess a "T". The officials actually being on the floor is moot under those circumstances rules-wise.

If they rushed the warm-up period, then of course you can use the extenuating circumstances as a valid reason to not asses a "T".

No matter what, you still have to be able to give valid, logical and rules-based reasons to defend your action.

No, this is not a case of extenuating circumstances. The rule has nothing to due with the time on the clock. The visitors have until 10 minutes before the scheduled start time. In this case the error was discovered 20 minutes before the scheduled start time. By rule, there is no reason to penalize the visiting team.

Just because the time on the clock normally is counting down to the scheduled start time does not mean that it always is.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

No, this is not a case of extenuating circumstances. The rule has nothing to due with the time on the clock. The visitors have until 10 minutes before the scheduled start time. In this case the error was discovered 20 minutes before the scheduled start time. By rule, there is no reason to penalize the visiting team.

Just because the time on the clock normally is counting down to the scheduled start time does not mean that it always is.

That might be a local interpretation (which I do not have a problem with) but that is not the case everywhere. Usually what is on the game clock is ultimately what we go by. I know I do not carry a watch on the court to know what is the exact time is before we start any game. And if we do what you suggest than a team would be in violation if a game before went long and no teams submitted the proper information. This is why I think the rules allow for the Referee to make decisions not specifically covered in the rulebook and this is one of them. I agree with you that we probably would not call a T here, just do not agree with the overall logic you are making that conclusion.

Peace

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

That might be a local interpretation (which I do not have a problem with) but that is not the case everywhere. Usually what is on the game clock is ultimately what we go by. I know I do not carry a watch on the court to know what is the exact time is before we start any game. And if we do what you suggest than a team would be in violation if a game before went long and no teams submitted the proper information. This is why I think the rules allow for the Referee to make decisions not specifically covered in the rulebook and this is one of them. I agree with you that we probably would not call a T here, just do not agree with the overall logic you are making that conclusion.

Peace

It's not my logic or my local interpretation. It is the actual rule from the rule book. See, I quoted it above.

Most games that follow another game are scheduled to start a certain number of minutes after the conclusion of the previous game (typically 25 or 30 minutes later here).

But the rule is not based on the time on the clock but the scheduled starting time.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

It's not my logic or my local interpretation. It is the actual rule from the rule book. See, I quoted it above.

Most games that follow another game are scheduled to start a certain number of minutes after the conclusion of the previous game (typically 25 or 30 minutes later here).

But the rule is not based on the time on the clock but the scheduled starting time.

And Rut's point is the way most places interpret this rule is slightly different than the way you read it; for the reason he stated. When I'm on the court, I am not looking for a wall clock that has (in my experience) about a 40% chance of being correct. I do not carry my phone with me, so I have no way of verifying the time.

This rule was written with the assumption that the countdown is to the scheduled starting time. The rule doesn't say "originally scheduled time." If that clock is counting down to the start, then that's your clock for this purpose. The schedule has been moved up, period.

That said, I've got no T here. I'm not giving the AD the opportunity to make a bush-league move like this to try to get a cheap T against the visitors.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

And Rut's point is the way most places interpret this rule is slightly different than the way you read it; for the reason he stated. When I'm on the court, I am not looking for a wall clock that has (in my experience) about a 40% chance of being correct. I do not carry my phone with me, so I have no way of verifying the time.

This rule was written with the assumption that the countdown is to the scheduled starting time. The rule doesn't say "originally scheduled time." If that clock is counting down to the start, then that's your clock for this purpose. The schedule has been moved up, period.

That said, I've got no T here. I'm not giving the AD the opportunity to make a bush-league move like this to try to get a cheap T against the visitors.

I disagree. We all use the clock because this rule eliminated this bush-league crap. You can't change the start time to force a T on the visitors because the turn in time is based off the scheduled start time. If they meant 10 minutes before the start of the game, they wouldn't have said "scheduled." The rule is worded the way it is to particularly cut this crap off at the knees.

If you believe the rule means you have to go by the clock, you have no choice but to issue the T here. I think you'll agree the rule is not intended to allow the home team to have the ability to always start the game with a T on the visitors.

What happens under your interpretation if I put 9:59 on the clock and just don't start it until under 10? For that matter, there is no requirement for the warm-up period to be timed at all. No, while the time on the clock is a useful tool, it is not actually determinative for this rule.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

It's not my logic or my local interpretation. It is the actual rule from the rule book. See, I quoted it above.

Most games that follow another game are scheduled to start a certain number of minutes after the conclusion of the previous game (typically 25 or 30 minutes later here).

But the rule is not based on the time on the clock but the scheduled starting time.

I think "scheduled" means "when the scoreboard clock gets to zero."

Otherwise, if a team bus is late, and the game is pushed back, we'd get a T on the visitors beore they even arrived.

In the OP -- find out why the time is off, when the teams wer notified, etc. And then decide -- it might also depend on why the book needs to be changed (and this isn't mentioned in the OP)