The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #16 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 14, 2011, 12:35pm
Back from the DL
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Maine
Posts: 2,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmhjordan23 View Post
Just saying if I were on the losing end, would hate to lose on foul like that because if it were my team, I would be mad at the player that he was out of position and he forced the official to call it.
Slightly better, but I still think you're missing the point.

A team doesn't "lose on [a] foul." They win or lose on the score, which is always cumulative of the entire game, including the calls you make.

In a close game, something you may or may not have called in the first quarter affects the game's outcome every bit as something you may or may not have called in the last minute.

In basketball, we often hear, "THAT decided the game." It's never just THAT. It's always a series of things. To pin an outcome on one play -- no matter how memorable it may be -- is really a lazy-minded outlook. In a close game, you can often find at least a dozen things that could have changed the outcome.
Reply With Quote
  #17 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 14, 2011, 01:06pm
Adam's Avatar
Keeper of the HAMMER
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MST
Posts: 27,190
Quote:
Originally Posted by bainsey View Post
Slightly better, but I still think you're missing the point.

A team doesn't "lose on [a] foul." They win or lose on the score, which is always cumulative of the entire game, including the calls you make.

In a close game, something you may or may not have called in the first quarter affects the game's outcome every bit as something you may or may not have called in the last minute.

In basketball, we often hear, "THAT decided the game." It's never just THAT. It's always a series of things. To pin an outcome on one play -- no matter how memorable it may be -- is really a lazy-minded outlook. In a close game, you can often find at least a dozen things that could have changed the outcome.
While this is all true, the earlier something happens (such as an official's mistake that leads to an open three point shot in the third quarter) the more chance the other team has to make up for the mistake. It is possible (I know I'm somewhat backtracking on previous statements) for an official to make a bad call or no-call at the end of the game that actually costs a team the game.
__________________
Sprinkles are for winners.
Reply With Quote
  #18 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 14, 2011, 02:21pm
Back from the DL
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Maine
Posts: 2,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
While this is all true, the earlier something happens (such as an official's mistake that leads to an open three point shot in the third quarter) the more chance the other team has to make up for the mistake.
Very well, then. Let's say that you completely kick a block/charge call in the first quarter. A1 drives to the basket, goes airborne, B2 hits LGP too late, the basket is good, and a crash ensues. You stupidly call a charge and wave off the basket. How is Team A ever going to make up for those two points you just negated?

The only thing Team A can do it is keep playing and do the best it can. I don't see how it can "make up" for your mistake.

Quote:
It is possible (I know I'm somewhat backtracking on previous statements) for an official to make a bad call or no-call at the end of the game that actually costs a team the game.
You can certainly affect a close game's outcome at its end, but in reality, no more than you can affect it via a first-quarter kick. While plays and score situations certainly cascade as the game goes on, you can still affect a close game's outcome at any time. The question is whether anyone will remember it, and people are typically too caught up in the game's emotion to remember something early.

Mind you, that doesn't give anyone permission not to bring their A-game early. Quite the contrary, bring it and maintain it throughout. You will have an effect in a close game, just make sure it's not a negative one.
Reply With Quote
  #19 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 14, 2011, 02:30pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 17,720
Quote:
Originally Posted by bainsey View Post
Very well, then. Let's say that you completely kick a block/charge call in the first quarter. A1 drives to the basket, goes airborne, B2 hits LGP too late, the basket is good, and a crash ensues. You stupidly call a charge and wave off the basket. How is Team A ever going to make up for those two points you just negated?
Read it as "overcome", not "make up".

And, the fact is, that the closer to the end of the game, the more scrutiny there is on the players, the coaches and the officials.
Reply With Quote
  #20 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 14, 2011, 02:30pm
Adam's Avatar
Keeper of the HAMMER
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MST
Posts: 27,190
Are you going to suggest a team plays the same in the last minute with a 2 point lead as they do when down by 2 points? Or even when they're tied? You take away two points from a team with a minute left, they can possibly recover. You take away two points with no time on the clock, they can't.

Talk all you want about FTs missed and layups missed (and they aren't irrelevant), but let's not pretend a mistake with 2 minutes left is the same as a mistake with 2 seconds remaining.
__________________
Sprinkles are for winners.
Reply With Quote
  #21 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 14, 2011, 02:47pm
Back from the DL
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Maine
Posts: 2,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
And, the fact is, that the closer to the end of the game, the more scrutiny there is on the players, the coaches and the officials.
No question. I submit, though, that it has a lot to do with what most people can take in. If you were to take a step back and analyze the totality of a close game, wouldn't you likely find a number of things that could have affected its outcome?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells
Are you going to suggest a team plays the same in the last minute with a 2 point lead as they do when down by 2 points? Or even when they're tied?
Of course not! How did you connect those dots?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells
Talk all you want about FTs missed and layups missed (and they aren't irrelevant), but let's not pretend a mistake with 2 minutes left is the same as a mistake with 2 seconds remaining.
I'm not talking about the blame game here.

My point is that, in a close game, our actions always affect the outcome. The belief that officials shouldn't affect the outcome is unrealistic, and it usually comes from what people can remember. People typically move on from something you kicked earlier in the game, but when you analyze a game objectively, what you do indeed plays a role, whether people remember it or not.
Reply With Quote
  #22 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 14, 2011, 02:58pm
Adam's Avatar
Keeper of the HAMMER
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MST
Posts: 27,190
Quote:
Originally Posted by bainsey View Post
Of course not! How did you connect those dots?
Let's find the dots:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
While this is all true, the earlier something happens (such as an official's mistake that leads to an open three point shot in the third quarter) the more chance the other team has to make up for the mistake.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bainsey View Post
Very well, then. Let's say that you completely kick a block/charge call in the first quarter. A1 drives to the basket, goes airborne, B2 hits LGP too late, the basket is good, and a crash ensues. You stupidly call a charge and wave off the basket. How is Team A ever going to make up for those two points you just negated? The only thing Team A can do it is keep playing and do the best it can. I don't see how it can "make up" for your mistake.
You can certainly affect a close game's outcome at its end, but in reality, no more than you can affect it via a first-quarter kick....
I'm sorry, but what you wrote above (particularly what I highlighted without otherwise altering) leads to the following question:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
Are you going to suggest a team plays the same in the last minute with a 2 point lead as they do when down by 2 points?
Your suggestion that a kicked block/charge call in the first quarter is just as vital to the end of the game as the same kicked call with 2 seconds left is silly. If it's not what you meant, it's certainly what you wrote.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bainsey View Post
No question. I submit, though, that it has a lot to do with what most people can take in. If you were to take a step back and analyze the totality of a close game, wouldn't you likely find a number of things that could have affected its outcome?
I know this was posed to bob, but my answer is, "of course, you'll find plays that affected the outcome. But their significance on the game is diminished in comparison to events that happened in closer proximity to the end."

If A1 misses two FTs that would have tied the game with a minute left, it's a big deal but not insurmountable. If he misses those same game-tying FTs with 1 second left, overcoming becomes even more difficult. If he misses those same game-tying FTs with no time left, the error has now become insurmountable.
__________________
Sprinkles are for winners.

Last edited by Adam; Mon Feb 14, 2011 at 03:00pm.
Reply With Quote
  #23 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 14, 2011, 03:03pm
Adam's Avatar
Keeper of the HAMMER
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MST
Posts: 27,190
The same applies to missed calls or kicked rules. If I wipe off a game-tying score with 60 seconds left; they can possibly recover. If I wipe it with no time left, they cannot. Whether the score got wiped due to a player's error (travel, PC foul, etc) or my error (bad call, poor rules knowledge) makes no difference WRT the ability of the team's ability to recover.
__________________
Sprinkles are for winners.
Reply With Quote
  #24 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 14, 2011, 03:25pm
Back from the DL
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Maine
Posts: 2,540
Okay, fair enough.

Now, allow me to connect your dots.

"Overcome" seems to be the key verb here. Are you saying that it's okay to kick a call, provided that a team can overcome it?
Reply With Quote
  #25 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 14, 2011, 03:35pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 17,720
Quote:
Originally Posted by bainsey View Post
Okay, fair enough.

Now, allow me to connect your dots.

"Overcome" seems to be the key verb here. Are you saying that it's okay to kick a call, provided that a team can overcome it?
Yes, That's exactly what we're saying.

/sarcasm.
Reply With Quote
  #26 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 14, 2011, 03:48pm
Back from the DL
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Maine
Posts: 2,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
Yes, That's exactly what we're saying.

/sarcasm.
That was Snaq's question, Bob. I didn't see an answer to your question a few posts back.
Reply With Quote
  #27 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 14, 2011, 03:56pm
Adam's Avatar
Keeper of the HAMMER
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MST
Posts: 27,190
Quote:
Originally Posted by bainsey View Post
Okay, fair enough.

Now, allow me to connect your dots.

"Overcome" seems to be the key verb here. Are you saying that it's okay to kick a call, provided that a team can overcome it?
Good grief. I'll let Bob's response speak for me as well.
__________________
Sprinkles are for winners.
Reply With Quote
  #28 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 14, 2011, 04:03pm
Back from the DL
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Maine
Posts: 2,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
Good grief. I'll let Bob's response speak for me as well.
I'll take that as a "no," which proves my point. You can affect the outcome of a game with a kicked call at any time. The only difference, as Bob pointed out, is the scrutiny is greater at the end. That's because people can only remember so much.
Reply With Quote
  #29 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 14, 2011, 04:05pm
Adam's Avatar
Keeper of the HAMMER
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MST
Posts: 27,190
Quote:
Originally Posted by bainsey View Post
Okay, fair enough.

Now, allow me to connect your dots.

"Overcome" seems to be the key verb here. Are you saying that it's okay to kick a call, provided that a team can overcome it?
And you're going to have to do one of three things here, it seems.
1. Acknowledge that a late mistake is more damaging than an early mistake.
2. Acknowledge that you think players and coaches don't make adjustments late in the game based on the score.
3. Simply live with the cognitive dissonance.
__________________
Sprinkles are for winners.

Last edited by Adam; Mon Feb 14, 2011 at 04:08pm. Reason: fixed it for me
Reply With Quote
  #30 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 14, 2011, 04:06pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 17,720
Quote:
Originally Posted by bainsey View Post
I'll take that as a "no," which proves my point. You can affect the outcome of a game with a kicked call at any time. The only difference, as Bob pointed out, is the scrutiny is greater at the end. That's because people can only remember so much.
Please.

If you have a choice (and you really don't), then you'd rather kick a call at the beginning of the game than at the end.

All missed calls affect the game. Those at the end affect the game more.

No one said (I don't think) that missed calls at the beginning don't affect the game.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What happened to the T to start the game--NCAA Game thread? w_sohl Basketball 1 Tue Mar 10, 2009 01:32pm
Jordan's 63 pt game - Game 2 of 1st round 1986 Eastern Conference Playoffs Cajun Reff Basketball 15 Fri Mar 07, 2008 09:56am
Twenty technicals in one game - all for delay of game! Mark Padgett Basketball 14 Wed Dec 26, 2007 12:55pm
Next game teams warming up on field during game reccer Softball 6 Mon Jul 16, 2007 03:00pm
Cursed Game: 3 Injuries, 2 ambulance calls, 1 game wadeintothem Softball 3 Mon Oct 16, 2006 04:48pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:51am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1