End of game

[cmhjordan23]

Okay I will reword some things. I never ever care what the fans think. Second, I had no probably with the call. Just saying if I were on the losing end, would hate to lose on foul like that because if it were my team, I would be mad at the player that he was out of position and he forced the official to call it.

[cmhjordan23]

And the person I was working with at the time has a tendancy to not blow his whistle loud enough. Makes it difficult to sell the call IF it happens to be questionable to the average fan.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by cmhjordan23

And the person I was working with at the time has a tendancy to not blow his whistle loud enough. Makes it difficult to sell the call IF it happens to be questionable to the average fan.

Not to pile on but....

When did we ever have to sell a call to a fan? Or to a coach for that matter? The call sells itself if it's the right call. And that's all we should worry about; getting the call right.

JMHO.....

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by cmhjordan23

... Just saying if I were on the losing end, would hate to lose on foul like that because if it were my team, I would be mad at the player that he was out of position and he forced the official to call it.

Don't even worry about that aspect of the game. You are no longer a player, coach, or fan. Be more worried about what your assignor/supervisor/observer/crew chief/mentor has to say to about the calls/non-calls at the end of the game.

[tref]

Originally Posted by badnewsref

don't even worry about that aspect of the game. You a no longer a player, coach, or fan. Be more worried about what your assignor/supervisor/observer/crew chief/mentor has to say to about the calls/non-calls at the end of the game.

+1

[stir22]

but the fans were definitely on us.

if you HADN'T called it, the other team's fans would have been on you.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by cmhjordan23

Just saying if I were on the losing end, would hate to lose on foul like that because if it were my team, I would be mad at the player that he was out of position and he forced the official to call it.

Slightly better, but I still think you're missing the point.

A team doesn't "lose on [a] foul." They win or lose on the score, which is always cumulative of the entire game, including the calls you make.

In a close game, something you may or may not have called in the first quarter affects the game's outcome every bit as something you may or may not have called in the last minute.

In basketball, we often hear, "THAT decided the game." It's never just THAT. It's always a series of things. To pin an outcome on one play -- no matter how memorable it may be -- is really a lazy-minded outlook. In a close game, you can often find at least a dozen things that could have changed the outcome.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Slightly better, but I still think you're missing the point.

A team doesn't "lose on [a] foul." They win or lose on the score, which is always cumulative of the entire game, including the calls you make.

In a close game, something you may or may not have called in the first quarter affects the game's outcome every bit as something you may or may not have called in the last minute.

In basketball, we often hear, "THAT decided the game." It's never just THAT. It's always a series of things. To pin an outcome on one play -- no matter how memorable it may be -- is really a lazy-minded outlook. In a close game, you can often find at least a dozen things that could have changed the outcome.

While this is all true, the earlier something happens (such as an official's mistake that leads to an open three point shot in the third quarter) the more chance the other team has to make up for the mistake. It is possible (I know I'm somewhat backtracking on previous statements) for an official to make a bad call or no-call at the end of the game that actually costs a team the game.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

While this is all true, the earlier something happens (such as an official's mistake that leads to an open three point shot in the third quarter) the more chance the other team has to make up for the mistake.

Very well, then. Let's say that you completely kick a block/charge call in the first quarter. A1 drives to the basket, goes airborne, B2 hits LGP too late, the basket is good, and a crash ensues. You stupidly call a charge and wave off the basket. How is Team A ever going to make up for those two points you just negated?

The only thing Team A can do it is keep playing and do the best it can. I don't see how it can "make up" for your mistake.

It is possible (I know I'm somewhat backtracking on previous statements) for an official to make a bad call or no-call at the end of the game that actually costs a team the game.

You can certainly affect a close game's outcome at its end, but in reality, no more than you can affect it via a first-quarter kick. While plays and score situations certainly cascade as the game goes on, you can still affect a close game's outcome at any time. The question is whether anyone will remember it, and people are typically too caught up in the game's emotion to remember something early.

Mind you, that doesn't give anyone permission not to bring their A-game early. Quite the contrary, bring it and maintain it throughout. You will have an effect in a close game, just make sure it's not a negative one.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Very well, then. Let's say that you completely kick a block/charge call in the first quarter. A1 drives to the basket, goes airborne, B2 hits LGP too late, the basket is good, and a crash ensues. You stupidly call a charge and wave off the basket. How is Team A ever going to make up for those two points you just negated?

Read it as "overcome", not "make up".

And, the fact is, that the closer to the end of the game, the more scrutiny there is on the players, the coaches and the officials.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

And, the fact is, that the closer to the end of the game, the more scrutiny there is on the players, the coaches and the officials.

No question. I submit, though, that it has a lot to do with what most people can take in. If you were to take a step back and analyze the totality of a close game, wouldn't you likely find a number of things that could have affected its outcome?

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Are you going to suggest a team plays the same in the last minute with a 2 point lead as they do when down by 2 points? Or even when they're tied?

Of course not! How did you connect those dots?

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Talk all you want about FTs missed and layups missed (and they aren't irrelevant), but let's not pretend a mistake with 2 minutes left is the same as a mistake with 2 seconds remaining.

I'm not talking about the blame game here.

My point is that, in a close game, our actions always affect the outcome. The belief that officials shouldn't affect the outcome is unrealistic, and it usually comes from what people can remember. People typically move on from something you kicked earlier in the game, but when you analyze a game objectively, what you do indeed plays a role, whether people remember it or not.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Of course not! How did you connect those dots?

Let's find the dots:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

While this is all true, the earlier something happens (such as an official's mistake that leads to an open three point shot in the third quarter) the more chance the other team has to make up for the mistake.

Originally Posted by bainsey

Very well, then. Let's say that you completely kick a block/charge call in the first quarter. A1 drives to the basket, goes airborne, B2 hits LGP too late, the basket is good, and a crash ensues. You stupidly call a charge and wave off the basket. How is Team A ever going to make up for those two points you just negated? The only thing Team A can do it is keep playing and do the best it can. I don't see how it can "make up" for your mistake.
You can certainly affect a close game's outcome at its end, but in reality, no more than you can affect it via a first-quarter kick....

I'm sorry, but what you wrote above (particularly what I highlighted without otherwise altering) leads to the following question:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Are you going to suggest a team plays the same in the last minute with a 2 point lead as they do when down by 2 points?

Your suggestion that a kicked block/charge call in the first quarter is just as vital to the end of the game as the same kicked call with 2 seconds left is silly. If it's not what you meant, it's certainly what you wrote.

Originally Posted by bainsey

No question. I submit, though, that it has a lot to do with what most people can take in. If you were to take a step back and analyze the totality of a close game, wouldn't you likely find a number of things that could have affected its outcome?

I know this was posed to bob, but my answer is, "of course, you'll find plays that affected the outcome. But their significance on the game is diminished in comparison to events that happened in closer proximity to the end."

If A1 misses two FTs that would have tied the game with a minute left, it's a big deal but not insurmountable. If he misses those same game-tying FTs with 1 second left, overcoming becomes even more difficult. If he misses those same game-tying FTs with no time left, the error has now become insurmountable.

[Adam]

Are you going to suggest a team plays the same in the last minute with a 2 point lead as they do when down by 2 points? Or even when they're tied? You take away two points from a team with a minute left, they can possibly recover. You take away two points with no time on the clock, they can't.

Talk all you want about FTs missed and layups missed (and they aren't irrelevant), but let's not pretend a mistake with 2 minutes left is the same as a mistake with 2 seconds remaining.

[tref]

"If you're gonna kick one, dont make it a gamer!" - Violet Palmer