Easier for us to see...

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

You can over-analyze the freaking play until Doomsday, JAR, but the RULES say its a double flagrant personal foul if the fight occurs during a live ball, not one flagrant personal and one flagrant technical.

Yeah, but. True, the case play you cite calls it a double personal, although, as stated above, I have a problem with it. Next, one size doesn't fit all. Same play, except A1 swings and misses, B1 returns fire and lays him out. Double flagrant, both are gone. A1 foul cannot be personal because there was no contact.

And, as also stated above, personal or technical, it really doesn't matter in this case.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Yeah, but. True, the case play you cite calls it a double personal, although, as stated above, I have a problem with it. Next, one size doesn't fit all. Same play, except A1 swings and misses, B1 returns fire and lays him out. Double flagrant, both are gone. A1 foul cannot be personal because there was no contact.

And, as also stated above, personal or technical, it really doesn't matter in this case.

Yes, it does matter, because if one is personal and the other is technical, they are not a double foul. False double.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Yeah, but. True, the case play you cite calls it a double personal, although, as stated above, I have a problem with it. Next, one size doesn't fit all. Same play, except A1 swings and misses, B1 returns fire and lays him out. Double flagrant, both are gone. A1 foul cannot be personal because there was no contact.

yeah, but.

What difference does it make if you have a problem with it? You have the same problem with blarges. There's rules I don't particulary like either. That doesn't mean they don't exist.

And one size does fit all unless you want to change the parameters of the "all". In the play being discussed, "all" is all double contact fouls for fighting during a live ball. You're talking about a completely different play re: the missed swing and subsequent retaliation. Now you're into an initial non-contact situation where you penalize the total act. Apples and oranges....and a completely different "all". And you use different rules for the oranges. In the missed swing followed by retaliation, you use case book play 4.18.2 as a guide and issue a double flagrant technical foul. The rules concept remains the same though....live ball contact fouls are personal fouls and live ball non-contact unsporting acts are technical fouls. One rule for the apples; one rule for the oranges.