Fight in girls game - sort of

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by RobbyinTN

You also do not know for sure that the tall girl was nice to the official but not so much to the other player. Unless I hear the smaller girl say something I can't automatically assume she said something. I can't call what I don't see and I can't call what I don't hear. Yes, most likely the girl taunted her but without definite knowledge I am not going to call it.

My point is you're not calling what you did see: a player baiting another player into a fight. She doesn't even have to say anything, she just has to commit an unsporting act.

Beyond that you aren't automatically assuming anything. You are using the situation to understand what happened. No call happens in a vacuum. This isn't a player decking someone out of the clear blue.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

My point is you're not calling what you did see: a player baiting another player into a fight. She doesn't even have to say anything, she just has to commit an unsporting act.

Beyond that you aren't automatically assuming anything. You are using the situation to understand what happened. No call happens in a vacuum. This isn't a player decking someone out of the clear blue.

Really? Imagine this: the tall player made up her mind to slap the defender when the original foul occurred. She then tossed away the ball, heard the defender say "Sorry", and then slapped her anyway.

Is that what really happened? I dunno. But the point is it is at least possible. In any case, I can't assume the defender taunted her without knowing what she said. I am not a lawyer, (and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night) but I'm sure that's how it would play out in a courtroom.

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

My point is you're not calling what you did see: a player baiting another player into a fight. She doesn't even have to say anything, she just has to commit an unsporting act.

Beyond that you aren't automatically assuming anything. You are using the situation to understand what happened. No call happens in a vacuum. This isn't a player decking someone out of the clear blue.

I agree with Eastshire. I've had Ts in the past where I didnt hear exactly what was said but it was clear that there was baiting, taunting going on.

Given the context of the situation, its a clear case of baiting the opposing team's best player and it worked in getting them tossed from the game.

IMO, to say that you didnt hear what was said is a cop-out.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by VaTerp

IMO, to say that you didnt hear what was said is a cop-out.

Howinthehell can that be a cop-out if it's true?

Lah me.........another mind-reader.......

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Howinthehell can that be a cop-out if it's true?

Lah me.........another mind-reader.......

Its a cop-out to not doing anything about what you observed. And it has nothing to do with mind reading and everything to do with observing the situation.

Others can disagree. That's fine. I know how I would have reacted, have reacted, and will continue to react in similar situations. And I've written up incidents for Ts where I didnt hear exactly what was said and have never been "blasted out of the water" or even heard a single word back from my assignors or anyone else.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by VaTerp

Others can disagree. That's fine. I know how I would have reacted, have reacted, and will continue to react in similar situations. And I've written up incidents for Ts where I didnt hear exactly what was said and have never been "blasted out of the water" or even heard a single word back from my assignors or anyone else.

And I've been handling the complaints that come into our association for many, many years. And any complaint composed of "I don't really know what was said but I think it must have bad" is just going to jump up and bite the person who tries to say something like that right in the azz.

Complaints are like the court of law. You have to have facts. And in this situation you don't even have "hearsay" because you didn't hear anyone say a damn thing. You're guessing.

We ain't ever going to agree on this.

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And I've been handling the complaints that come into our association for many, many years. And any complaint composed of "I don't really know what was said but I think it must have bad" is just going to jump up and bite the person who tries to say something like that right in the azz.

Complaints are like the court of law. You have to have facts. And in this situation you don't even have "hearsay" because you didn't hear anyone say a damn thing. You're guessing.

We ain't ever going to agree on this.

Agree, you have to have facts. I am, and have been, VERY comfortable justifying my decisions based on the facts at hand, even without hearing exactly what was said. And apparently so have the people I've had to submit reports to and deal with in 4 different associations.

You're right, we will never agree on this and fortunately, we don't have to.

[JugglingReferee]

I've seen an official issue calls and when asked about what was done/said to warrant the penalty, the official could not give answer. Yikes!

Just bad news, no matter how one tries to justify it.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And I've been handling the complaints that come into our association for many, many years. And any complaint composed of "I don't really know what was said but I think it must have bad" is just going to jump up and bite the person who tries to say something like that right in the azz.

Complaints are like the court of law. You have to have facts. And in this situation you don't even have "hearsay" because you didn't hear anyone say a damn thing. You're guessing.

We ain't ever going to agree on this.

JR, you don't have to hear anything. B1 doesn't have to say anything to be tossed. I don't have to hear what she says; I just have to determine if she commits an unsporting act. It's blatantly obvious to me that she baited the opponent.

If I'm A's coach, I'm filing a complaint that you don't toss B1 and all you have to say for yourself is you didn't toss the kid that provoked the fight because you're not exactly sure how she provoked it.

[APG]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

JR, you don't have to hear anything. B1 doesn't have to say anything to be tossed. I don't have to hear what she says; I just have to determine if she commits an unsporting act. It's blatantly obvious to me that she baited the opponent.

If I'm A's coach, I'm filing a complaint that you don't toss B1 and all you have to say for yourself is you didn't toss the kid that provoked the fight because you're not exactly sure how she provoked it.

But how do you know the player committed an unsporting act if you didn't hear what they said? Short of a player doing something physical (bump chest, give the finger, etc.) wouldn't you have to hear what the player said to determine if it was unsporting or not? What if the player was apologizing for the push in the back, but the fouled player decided she was going to get her payback no matter what and thus the slap to the face?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

JR, you don't have to hear anything. B1 doesn't have to say anything to be tossed. I don't have to hear what she says; I just have to determine if she commits an unsporting act. It's blatantly obvious to me that she baited the opponent.

If I'm A's coach, I'm filing a complaint that you don't toss B1 and all you have to say for yourself is you didn't toss the kid that provoked the fight because you're not exactly sure how she provoked it.

Taking to another player is an unsporting act when you don't have a clue what was said? Are you serious?

If B1's coach filed a complaint as to why you tossed B1, what's your answer? If their league has a mandatory suspension and asks you the same question before suspending B1, again what's your answer? Are you going to say "I tossed B1 for something she said"? If you do, the response that I know that you're going to get is "What exactly did B1 say to warrant her disqualification?" And your and VaTerp's answer if you're truthful is "I did not hear what B1 said."

Eastshire, I've been involved in complaints like this for many years. I know you and VaTerp aren't going to believe this but you both are going to lose one heckuva lot of credibility with both the league and your association if you start tossing players for something they said when you admittedly didn't hear anything of what they said.

Do what you feel you gotta do though. if guessing is your idea of the correct way to officiate, so be it. I'm just telling you my opinion.

[RobbyinTN]

Based on the assumption that I have to give her a T even though I don't know for a fact that she said something, if I look back and see a player falling to the floor and a player from the opposing team near her, I must call a foul on the girl because why else would she have fallen down unless she was fouled by the opponent.

I sure don't want to have to explain that to the coach

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by RobbyinTN

Based on the assumption that I have to give her a T even though I don't know for a fact that she said something, if I look back and see a player falling to the floor and a player from the opposing team near her, I must call a foul on the girl because why else would she have fallen down unless she was fouled by the opponent.

I sure don't want to have to explain that to the coach

Uh, she slipped or tripped over her own feet? Oh wait, that never happens in basketball.

And I suppose every time a player misses a shot when standing next to a defender you call a shooting foul because, after all, why else would the shooter miss a shot unless fouled by an opponent?

[RobbyinTN]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Uh, she slipped or tripped over her own feet? Oh wait, that never happens in basketball.

And I suppose every time a player misses a shot when standing next to a defender you call a shooting foul because, after all, why else would the shooter miss a shot unless fouled by an opponent?

Yea, I think you get my point Unless I see the foul committed I am not going to call it and if I don't hear a player taunt I am not automatically going to assume that they did if a player slaps them.