Fight in girls game - sort of

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by VaTerp

Others can disagree. That's fine. I know how I would have reacted, have reacted, and will continue to react in similar situations. And I've written up incidents for Ts where I didnt hear exactly what was said and have never been "blasted out of the water" or even heard a single word back from my assignors or anyone else.

And I've been handling the complaints that come into our association for many, many years. And any complaint composed of "I don't really know what was said but I think it must have bad" is just going to jump up and bite the person who tries to say something like that right in the azz.

Complaints are like the court of law. You have to have facts. And in this situation you don't even have "hearsay" because you didn't hear anyone say a damn thing. You're guessing.

We ain't ever going to agree on this.

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And I've been handling the complaints that come into our association for many, many years. And any complaint composed of "I don't really know what was said but I think it must have bad" is just going to jump up and bite the person who tries to say something like that right in the azz.

Complaints are like the court of law. You have to have facts. And in this situation you don't even have "hearsay" because you didn't hear anyone say a damn thing. You're guessing.

We ain't ever going to agree on this.

Agree, you have to have facts. I am, and have been, VERY comfortable justifying my decisions based on the facts at hand, even without hearing exactly what was said. And apparently so have the people I've had to submit reports to and deal with in 4 different associations.

You're right, we will never agree on this and fortunately, we don't have to.

[JugglingReferee]

I've seen an official issue calls and when asked about what was done/said to warrant the penalty, the official could not give answer. Yikes!

Just bad news, no matter how one tries to justify it.

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

I've seen an official issue calls and when asked about what was done/said to warrant the penalty, the official could not give answer. Yikes!

Just bad news, no matter how one tries to justify it.

Well if you can't give an answer then no you have no business calling it.

Good thing I'm capable of giving more than adequate answers that justify my decisions to all who matter.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by VaTerp

Well if you can't give an answer then no you have no business calling it.

And that's exactly my point. If someone asked me what the defender said to qualify as a taunt, I wouldn't be able to give an answer. Therefore, according to your own statement above, I would have no business calling it.

BTW - the defender made no gestures or anything like it. The only thing that moved when she spoke was her mouth.

[APG]

Mark, you never answered the question I asked earlier. By rule, you should of ejected the bench personnel that came off the bench, save the coaches whom I'm assuming were in peace keeping roles, due to a potential fight. Why did you decide to set aside that rule (maybe it's a local rule for your league)?

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

Mark, you never answered the question I asked earlier. By rule, you should of ejected the bench personnel that came off the bench, save the coaches whom I'm assuming were in peace keeping roles, due to a potential fight. Why did you decide to set aside that rule (maybe it's a local rule for your league)?

The game would then have been over and both coaches discussed it then asked us if they could just continue the game without anyone from the benches being ejected because they just kind of walked out to see what was going on, not to get involved. Even though HS rules don't care why they came out, we agreed to continue the game because we wanted to let the kids play.

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

And that's exactly my point. If someone asked me what the defender said to qualify as a taunt, I wouldn't be able to give an answer. Therefore, according to your own statement above, I would have no business calling it.

BTW - the defender made no gestures or anything like it. The only thing that moved when she spoke was her mouth.

My point is that I could still give a satisfactory answer about my decision, given the context of the entire situation, without knowing exactly what was said.

But I'm not going to continue to debate that point anymore. As I said, I know how I would have, have, and likely will handle similar situations.

I'm more interested in exactly how you administered everything that you did call?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by VaTerp

My point is that I could still give a satisfactory answer about my decision, given the context of the entire situation, without knowing exactly what was said.

A1 committed a foul, which was ruled intentional, not flagrant, then said something, you have no idea what, then B1 slapped A1 across the face. So you ejected both.

How do you justify this, sir?

And your "satisfactory" answer would be?

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And I've been handling the complaints that come into our association for many, many years. And any complaint composed of "I don't really know what was said but I think it must have bad" is just going to jump up and bite the person who tries to say something like that right in the azz.

Complaints are like the court of law. You have to have facts. And in this situation you don't even have "hearsay" because you didn't hear anyone say a damn thing. You're guessing.

We ain't ever going to agree on this.

JR, you don't have to hear anything. B1 doesn't have to say anything to be tossed. I don't have to hear what she says; I just have to determine if she commits an unsporting act. It's blatantly obvious to me that she baited the opponent.

If I'm A's coach, I'm filing a complaint that you don't toss B1 and all you have to say for yourself is you didn't toss the kid that provoked the fight because you're not exactly sure how she provoked it.

[APG]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

JR, you don't have to hear anything. B1 doesn't have to say anything to be tossed. I don't have to hear what she says; I just have to determine if she commits an unsporting act. It's blatantly obvious to me that she baited the opponent.

If I'm A's coach, I'm filing a complaint that you don't toss B1 and all you have to say for yourself is you didn't toss the kid that provoked the fight because you're not exactly sure how she provoked it.

But how do you know the player committed an unsporting act if you didn't hear what they said? Short of a player doing something physical (bump chest, give the finger, etc.) wouldn't you have to hear what the player said to determine if it was unsporting or not? What if the player was apologizing for the push in the back, but the fouled player decided she was going to get her payback no matter what and thus the slap to the face?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

JR, you don't have to hear anything. B1 doesn't have to say anything to be tossed. I don't have to hear what she says; I just have to determine if she commits an unsporting act. It's blatantly obvious to me that she baited the opponent.

If I'm A's coach, I'm filing a complaint that you don't toss B1 and all you have to say for yourself is you didn't toss the kid that provoked the fight because you're not exactly sure how she provoked it.

Taking to another player is an unsporting act when you don't have a clue what was said? Are you serious?

If B1's coach filed a complaint as to why you tossed B1, what's your answer? If their league has a mandatory suspension and asks you the same question before suspending B1, again what's your answer? Are you going to say "I tossed B1 for something she said"? If you do, the response that I know that you're going to get is "What exactly did B1 say to warrant her disqualification?" And your and VaTerp's answer if you're truthful is "I did not hear what B1 said."

Eastshire, I've been involved in complaints like this for many years. I know you and VaTerp aren't going to believe this but you both are going to lose one heckuva lot of credibility with both the league and your association if you start tossing players for something they said when you admittedly didn't hear anything of what they said.

Do what you feel you gotta do though. if guessing is your idea of the correct way to officiate, so be it. I'm just telling you my opinion.