3 Man Lead Question

[CDurham]

I was reviewing some game film and came across a play that I missed. I was in the Lead after a defensive rebound was secured. I am opposite table and the girl secures the rebound in the center of the lane and facing the table where the Center is. I am looking at her back in the Lead, while the Center has a good view of her front. A defender comes in and I "see" her arm go around the player with the ball and in the direction of where she is holding the ball. The offensive player gives the common shake off trying to (what I presumed) get the ball loose. I go up with the held ball, but in reviewing the tape my partner in the Center is starting to go up with the foul but doesnt as I come in with the held ball. However it should have been a foul.

Is there any way to handle this type situation as the Lead? If you are blocked like this should you leave the call to the center official as he has a view of the front of the player and play (if the action happens up front)?

Thanks!

[Larks]

My take...dont guess and trust your partners to see fouls that are "gotta gets" on plays like this.

[biggravy]

Take this as just advice, not saying right or wrong: I used to feel like "I've got to have something." Now I realize that is why we have partners. Watch the play, see your partner in your peripheral vision. If you see he is watching the play, trust your partner while you are stepping to get a better angle if possible. It's okay to have nothing there. What I'm curious about, if we have a double whistle on a tie up sitch where my partner has a held ball and I have illegal contact that allowed B1 to tie up that ball, I'm coming in HARD with the foul.

Originally Posted by CDurham

I was reviewing some game film and came across a play that I missed. I was in the Lead after a defensive rebound was secured. I am opposite table and the girl secures the rebound in the center of the lane and facing the table where the Center is. I am looking at her back in the Lead, while the Center has a good view of her front. A defender comes in and I "see" her arm go around the player with the ball and in the direction of where she is holding the ball. The offensive player gives the common shake off trying to (what I presumed) get the ball loose. I go up with the held ball, but in reviewing the tape my partner in the Center has a foul and it shold have been a foul.

Is there any way to handle this type situation as the Lead? If you are blocked like this should you leave the call to the center official as he has a view of the front of the player and play (if the action happens up front)?

Thanks!

[CDurham]

Originally Posted by biggravy

Take this as just advice, not saying right or wrong: I used to feel like "I've got to have something." Now I realize that is why we have partners. Watch the play, see your partner in your peripheral vision. If you see he is watching the play, trust your partner while you are stepping to get a better angle if possible. It's okay to have nothing there. What I'm curious about, if we have a double whistle on a tie up sitch where my partner has a held ball and I have illegal contact that allowed B1 to tie up that ball, I'm coming in HARD with the foul.

He didn't go up all the way or he probably would have, in fact he didn't have a whistle, just arm movement.

[Butterfly182310]

My opinion...unless it's absolutely, clearly, a clean held ball, call the foul. From your description of the play, which we've all seen many times, it's unlikely that contact did not occur to "gain the advantage" of placing a hand on the ball. By opting for the held ball, you'll be making "decisions" on that play all night. By calling a foul, you send the message that it will be good clean defense, or a special place on the bench picking splinters. You could classify it as a "game management foul".

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Butterfly182310

My opinion...unless it's absolutely, clearly, a clean held ball, call the foul. From your description of the play, which we've all seen many times, it's unlikely that contact did not occur to "gain the advantage" of placing a hand on the ball. By opting for the held ball, you'll be making "decisions" on that play all night. By calling a foul, you send the message that it will be good clean defense, or a special place on the bench picking splinters. You could classify it as a "game management foul".

Boo. Absolutely, couldn't disagree more. Don't guess.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by CDurham

Is there any way to handle this type situation as the Lead? If you are blocked like this should you leave the call to the center official as he has a view of the front of the player and play (if the action happens up front)?

That says it all right there. You're blocked. Therefore you're guessing. Guessing is never good. You're never going to guess right 100% of the time.

The right call when you're blocked is always no call.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Butterfly182310

My opinion...unless it's absolutely, clearly, a clean held ball, call the foul. From your description of the play, which we've all seen many times, it's unlikely that contact did not occur to "gain the advantage" of placing a hand on the ball. By opting for the held ball, you'll be making "decisions" on that play all night. By calling a foul, you send the message that it will be good clean defense, or a special place on the bench picking splinters. You could classify it as a "game management foul".

"Game Management" is calling a foul on a player when you never actually saw a foul committed?

Lah me.....

You've got me confused (which isn't that unusual). Aren't we supposed to be making decisions on every play? They're all different, aren't they? Every time a defender reaches in to try and tie up the ball, we have to decide whether they fouled doing so, tied it up or we should let play continue. Period. We sureasheck shouldn't be calling it a foul every time in the name of "game management".

My opinion is that's bad advice. From the description of the play, the official was blocked and couldn't see anything. You should only call a foul if it's absolutely, clearly a foul. You should only call a held ball if it's absolutely, clearly a held ball. If you start guessing, guess wrong and it wasn't a foul, what message do you think you're sending in that case?

The play is what it is. It doesn't have to be anything.

Never call what you can't see.

JMO

[Freddy]

"When in Nome, do what the Nomans do." Here in the Alaska-like conditions of the area across the lake from Rut some crews include in the pregame the question, "Are you going to be crashing with an open hand, or with thumbs up?"
With the "crash with the open hand" option upon an apparent held ball situation, one official will whistle, close in with an open hand to stop the clock just prior to giving the thumbs up, then take a split second to glance at a partner to see if he also has a whistle. This allows the brief opportunity to see if your partner, having a better view of the play, is coming in with a fist in the air. If so, the fist usually wins and the open hand is lowered to yield to his call. If, as sometimes happens when two players firmly grasp the ball and one yanks the other across his/her body, the held ball caused the foul, then a brief caucus clarifies that and they go with the held ball.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Freddy

"When in Nome, do what the Nomans do." Here in the Alaska-like conditions of the area across the lake from Rut some crews include in the pregame the question, "Are you going to be crashing with an open hand, or with thumbs up?"
With the "crash with the open hand" option upon an apparent held ball situation, one official will whistle, close in with an open hand to stop the clock just prior to giving the thumbs up, then take a split second to glance at a partner to see if he also has a whistle. This allows the brief opportunity to see if your partner, having a better view of the play, is coming in with a fist in the air. If so, the fist usually wins and the open hand is lowered to yield to his call. If, as sometimes happens when two players firmly grasp the ball and one yanks the other across his/her body, the held ball caused the foul, then a brief caucus clarifies that and they go with the held ball.

You Nomans do realize that you aren't using proper NFHS signals or mechanics, I hope, when you do that. If you look at the correct signal for a jump/held ball...#3 on the chart in the rulebook...you'll notice that the explanation under that signal says "stop clock for jump/held ball." Iow, you're already stopping the clock with signal #3 and the open-hand stop-clock signal ( #2) is never needed for any held ball. It's extraneous.

I'm not saying that isn't a good local mechanic as long as everybody knows it's a local mechanic only. I couldn't really care less about the signal you use. Getting the call right is the important thing.

A better idea though imo in situations like this is to just NOT whistle or signal at all until you're absolutely sure it was either a foul or a held ball. Then make the appropriate call. Doo-doo does happen though. That's why we have blarges. And if we do end up with a foul and a held ball called on the play, well, the officials just have to get together and decide which occurred first.

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

You Nomans do realize that you aren't using proper NFHS signals or mechanics, I hope, when you do that. If you look at the correct signal for a jump/held ball...#3 on the chart in the rulebook...you'll notice that the explanation under that signal says "stop clock for jump/held ball." Iow, you're already stopping the clock with signal #3 and the open-hand stop-clock signal ( #2) is never needed for any held ball. It's extraneous.

I'm not saying that isn't a good local mechanic as long as everybody knows it's a local mechanic only. I couldn't really care less about the signal you use. Getting the call right is the important thing.

I agree with all stated. And it was something that took a game or so to get accustomed to. It was rationalized to me that there's nothing out of order to stop the clock with an open hand then quickly signal the held ball as the reason for stopping the clock as a seperate gesture. That there were actually two non-foul signals to stop the clock, the upraised open hand and the thumbs up. I won't say that most around here do it, but locally it is especially common amongst the more quality officials. I by no means do it when anyone else on the crew isn't doing it. That lack of uniformity indeed makes it stand out as something too individualistic.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by CDurham

I was reviewing some game film and came across a play that I missed. I was in the Lead after a defensive rebound was secured. I am opposite table and the girl secures the rebound in the center of the lane and facing the table where the Center is. I am looking at her back in the Lead, while the Center has a good view of her front. A defender comes in and I "see" her arm go around the player with the ball and in the direction of where she is holding the ball. The offensive player gives the common shake off trying to (what I presumed) get the ball loose. I go up with the held ball, but in reviewing the tape my partner in the Center is starting to go up with the foul but doesnt as I come in with the held ball. However it should have been a foul.

Is there any way to handle this type situation as the Lead? If you are blocked like this should you leave the call to the center official as he has a view of the front of the player and play (if the action happens up front)?

Thanks!

The key thing here is that you don't see the tie-up. You're looking through a back and guessing. That's been said many times already, so no need to pile on.

If you have a C that doesn't bail, let the C pick this one up. If you're working 2-person, hopefully the L hasn't bailed and is in a good position to help. If not, wait a beat and see if the play resolves itself (ball is clearly tied up or you can clearly see a foul) or if you can get a better angle.

As far as the held ball vs. a foul, clearly your partner didn't have conviction of his call or he would've came in and sold it. I have no problem with me signaling a held ball and a partner calling a foul. Whining coaches are told that the contact lead to the held ball and life goes on.

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Whining coaches are told that the contact lead to the held ball and life goes on.

. . . or that the held ball led to the contact. As when two players have firm grasps on the ball, then one of them yanks and twists, bringing the other's arm in contact with his/her counterpart's body. Seems this is commonly called a foul on the innocent player whose arm just happened to get yanked across the other player's midsection. "The held ball preceeded the contact, coach."

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Freddy

. . . or that the held ball led to the contact. As when two players have firm grasps on the ball, then one of them yanks and twists, bringing the other's arm in contact with his/her counterpart's body. Seems this is commonly called a foul on the innocent player whose arm just happened to get yanked across the other player's midsection. "The held ball preceeded the contact, coach."

Oh, sure. I was thinking about the situation where the player goes through the arm to tie the ball up. Certainly it can happen the other way.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by Freddy

"When in Nome, do what the Nomans do." Here in the Alaska-like conditions of the area across the lake from Rut some crews include in the pregame the question, "Are you going to be crashing with an open hand, or with thumbs up?"
With the "crash with the open hand" option upon an apparent held ball situation, one official will whistle, close in with an open hand to stop the clock just prior to giving the thumbs up, then take a split second to glance at a partner to see if he also has a whistle. This allows the brief opportunity to see if your partner, having a better view of the play, is coming in with a fist in the air. If so, the fist usually wins and the open hand is lowered to yield to his call. If, as sometimes happens when two players firmly grasp the ball and one yanks the other across his/her body, the held ball caused the foul, then a brief caucus clarifies that and they go with the held ball.

I thought Jeff lived in the Chicago area?