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Old Thu Jan 10, 2008, 10:07am
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QF1Y: Mechanics Question Lead/Trail

Lets see how well I can explain this relatively common situation...

2 man mechanics, trail is table-side, A1 has ball, pretty much right in front of trail. Entry pass into post player A2 who is on the block. Lead is on the far side of the court, lets say with other players moving through the key (semi-obstructed view).

So, entry pass is:
a) errantly thrown, just goes out-of-bounds on endline.
b) is muffed by A2 out-of-bounds
c) is deflected by a reaching B2 defender out-of-bounds
etc, etc.

What is a rock solid way to handle this out-of-bounds violation call, from both the lead (who, I'm suggesting, has a poor angle to see who last touched this ball which has gone out-of-bounds on their line) and trail.

As the lead I have just blown whistle, looked to partner and gotten no indication (like, "what do you need me for?") and as trail I have blown the whistle and felt like I had overstepped my bounds by calling (or trying to) on my partners line.

This seems like a fairly common scenario, so looking for some advice on how to really do it right.

Word.
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Old Thu Jan 10, 2008, 10:13am
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As the trail, do nothing with the whistle unless your partner misses it going out of bounds and there's a delay without a whistle.

A subtle thing you can do if you are absolutely sure the ball was not deflected is to start walking the other way. Your partner, if he has any doubt, will pick up on that. Same thing -- take a step or two up towards the baseline if you are absolutely sure it was deflected and your "staying here."
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Old Thu Jan 10, 2008, 10:15am
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My .02 cents.

First, discuss these issues in pre-game. Second, you did right to make eye contact with your partner. Third, when one of you gets the "what do you got look?", one of you needs to grab the bull by the horns, make an emphatic call (like you definitely KNOW what happened and definitely DID see it), and put the ball in play quickly, and move on.

* PS - I like Rich's suggestions too.
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Old Thu Jan 10, 2008, 10:21am
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Thanks. This is an excellent suggestion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichMSN
As the trail, do nothing with the whistle unless your partner misses it going out of bounds and there's a delay without a whistle.

A subtle thing you can do if you are absolutely sure the ball was not deflected is to start walking the other way. Your partner, if he has any doubt, will pick up on that. Same thing -- take a step or two up towards the baseline if you are absolutely sure it was deflected and your "staying here."
maybe when I was lead and getting nothing from my partner he was moving away and I didn't pick up on it!
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Old Thu Jan 10, 2008, 10:27am
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When I'm Lead, I have no problem putting a hand straight up, hitting the whistle, and verbally asking my partner for help when I have a poor look at a play.

When I'm Trail, I'm not going to do anything (except maybe take a few steps in the other direction as Rich says) unless my partner asks for help. Even if I believe that he missed the call. If he makes a call, he can live with it. If he wants help, he can ask.
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Old Thu Jan 10, 2008, 10:33am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
When I'm Lead, I have no problem putting a hand straight up, hitting the whistle, and verbally asking my partner for help when I have a poor look at a play.

When I'm Trail, I'm not going to do anything (except maybe take a few steps in the other direction as Rich says) unless my partner asks for help. Even if I believe that he missed the call. If he makes a call, he can live with it. If he wants help, he can ask.
I agree and only add that if you didn't see anything and partner indicates he is unsure or has not seen it - don't hesitate - hit the AP arrow. We are all human and sometimes mistakes are made or things are missed.
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Old Thu Jan 10, 2008, 10:49am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
When I'm Lead, I have no problem putting a hand straight up, hitting the whistle, and verbally asking my partner for help when I have a poor look at a play.

When I'm Trail, I'm not going to do anything (except maybe take a few steps in the other direction as Rich says) unless my partner asks for help. Even if I believe that he missed the call. If he makes a call, he can live with it. If he wants help, he can ask.
re: When Trail

But I've got the coach right behind me going ballistic! He knows the call was wrong, and knows that I know (or should know). The pass came from a player right in front of me. I had a great angle and saw the play. I'm still going to defer to an un-asking partner?
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Old Thu Jan 10, 2008, 10:55am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ca_rumperee
re: When Trail

But I've got the coach right behind me going ballistic! He knows the call was wrong, and knows that I know (or should know). The pass came from a player right in front of me. I had a great angle and saw the play. I'm still going to defer to an un-asking partner?
Nope. Go in and tell him/her what you saw. They* might have something different / later. It's up to them* to change their* call.

* -- Specifically worded for Nevada.
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Old Thu Jan 10, 2008, 10:57am
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It does not hurt to go to your partner and tell him what you saw. Even if your partner iinsists his call is correct, at least you made the effort to give your partner information.

If your partner accepts your information, let him/her change their call.
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Old Thu Jan 10, 2008, 11:44am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ca_rumperee
re: When Trail

But I've got the coach right behind me going ballistic! He knows the call was wrong, and knows that I know (or should know). The pass came from a player right in front of me. I had a great angle and saw the play. I'm still going to defer to an un-asking partner?
If I'm 110% (that's for you scrappy) sure, I'll go have a quick word with my partner and give him a chance to change his call. No one else will hear us, though.
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Old Thu Jan 10, 2008, 11:53am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chartrusepengui
I agree and only add that if you didn't see anything and partner indicates he is unsure or has not seen it - don't hesitate - hit the AP arrow. We are all human and sometimes mistakes are made or things are missed.
Agreed. If you blow the whistle, then look to your partner for help, be prepared to go to the arrow if he can't help you.
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Old Thu Jan 10, 2008, 12:00pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins
Nope. Go in and tell him/her what you saw. They* might have something different / later. It's up to them* to change their* call.

* -- Specifically worded for Nevada.

LOL!!!!



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Old Thu Jan 10, 2008, 12:01pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankHtown
It does not hurt to go to your partner and tell him what you saw. Even if your partner iinsists his call is correct, at least you made the effort to give your partner information.
And that's good because... you've tried to please a coach?
Any official who makes a call should be sure of the call. Any official who is unsure should be seeking help and NOT making a call. Hence if my partner makes a call, he must be sure, and therefore why would I want to go stick my nose in his business?
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Old Thu Jan 10, 2008, 12:04pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells
Agreed. If you blow the whistle, then look to your partner for help, be prepared to go to the arrow if he can't help you.
I'll be quite honest, here. My regular partner is going to give the subtle signals I mentioned above. If he doesn't and I'm not 100% sure but leaning in one direction, I'll call it that way rather than go to the arrow (and I'm not really hesitating more in my call than I would for any other). If the game's a complete blowout, then it's even easier to make the call

It's only when I have no idea whatsover and my partner doesn't that I'd go to the arrow, and I don't think that's happened more than 1-2 times in the past 3 seasons.
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Old Thu Jan 10, 2008, 12:08pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells
If I'm 110% (that's for you scrappy) sure, I'll go have a quick word with my partner and give him a chance to change his call. No one else will hear us, though.
I certainly won't do that because the mere act of going to your partner lets everyone in the gym know that you think that he got it wrong. IMO that isn't being a good partner. I suggest that you simply freeze and make eye contact or do something else subtle and then he can come to you, if he is unsure, or stick with his decision and inbound the ball.

Personally, I've never understood this obsession with coming to fix one's partner's OOB decisions. For those who advocate this why doesn't the same principle apply for fouls? If your partner calls a foul and you are 100% sure that he missed it, do you go over and talk to him before he reports?
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