Legal dribble or not?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I'm ruling it legal.

Interesting.

Explanation as to why it's legal? Scrappy said that the ball was released to start a dribble and the ball was then touched twice by the dribbler before the ball hit the floor. That double-touch was during the same dribble, wasn't it? The definition of a "dribble" says that you push the ball to the floor, not to a foot. What am I missing?

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Interesting.

Explanation as to why it's legal? Scrappy said that the ball was released to start a dribble and the ball was then touched twice by the dribbler before the ball hit the floor. That double-touch was during the same dribble, wasn't it? The definition of a "dribble" says that you push the ball to the floor, not to a foot. What am I missing?

If we follow that this is the same as the case play, then it would have to be an illegal dribble any time a player begins a dribble and the ball hits off his foot-even if the ball goes to a defender.

Agree?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

If we follow that this is the same as the case play, then it would have to be an illegal dribble any time a player begins a dribble and the ball hits off his foot-even if the ball goes to a defender.

Agree?

Why?

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Why?

Well, I'm asking. If the violation is for touching a dribble twice before it hits the floor (which is what it appears to me JR is saying), then any time a player begins a dribble and dribbles it off a foot (or knee, gut, head, whatever), that would be touching a dribble twice.

If I'm misreading what Jurassic is arguing, then I need straightened out. Perhaps he's saying that the player catching the ball off his foot is the second touching?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

If we follow that this is the same as the case play, then it would have to be an illegal dribble any time a player begins a dribble and the ball hits off his foot-even if the ball goes to a defender.

Agree?

Um, no. Afaik, by rule touching any other body part except the hand(s) during any single dribble is completely irrelevant. It's a violation to touch the ball twice with either hand during any single dribble. But simultaneously touching the ball with both hands isn't a violation. Doing so merely ends the dribble.

The usual understanding of a single dribble, again afaik, is hand--->floor---->hand. And if you touch the ball twice with a hand at any time between the total hand---->floor sequence, it's a violation.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Um, no. Afaik, by rule touching any other body part except the hand(s) during any single dribble is completely irrelevant. It's a violation to touch the ball twice with either hand during any single dribble. But simultaneously touching the ball with both hands isn't a violation. Doing so merely ends the dribble.

The usual understanding of a single dribble, again afaik, is hand--->floor---->hand. And if you touch the ball twice with a hand between the hand---->hand sequence, it's a violation.

Ah, I'm following you now. The violation occurs when the ball is touched again by the hand, not when the ball touches the foot. Thanks for the clarification.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

The violation occurs when the ball is touched again by the hand, not when the ball touches the foot.

That's my understanding of the rule. You'd only have a violation if you called the dribbler for deliberately playing the ball with the foot(aka a deliberate kicked ball). But's that's a different scenario than the OP and a different violation entirely.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

That's my understanding of the rule. You'd only have a violation if you called the dribbler for deliberately playing the ball with the foot(aka a deliberate kicked ball). But's that's a different scenario than the OP and a different violation entirely.

Yep, I was just having a brain cramp around what you were saying, not the rule. I was thinking you were arguing the second touching was when it hit the foot, which made no sense (obviously) to me. We agree.

In practice, it would have to be abundantly obvious the ball didn't hit the floor as well as the foot for me to call a violation.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

That's my understanding of the rule. You'd only have a violation if you called the dribbler for deliberately playing the ball with the foot(aka a deliberate kicked ball). But's that's a different scenario than the OP and a different violation entirely.

Before reading the case play, my understanding of the rule was that not only did the player have to hit the ball twice with his hands between bounces, but it had to happen after he batted the ball "in the air."

The reasoning in the case play, however, leads one to your conclusion.

In practice, though, I'm not sure there's any way I'd be able to see the ball didn't hit the floor.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Interesting.

Explanation as to why it's legal? Scrappy said that the ball was released to start a dribble and the ball was then touched twice by the dribbler before the ball hit the floor. That double-touch was during the same dribble, wasn't it? The definition of a "dribble" says that you push the ball to the floor, not to a foot. What am I missing?

Is that not just like a player tossing the ball from hand to hand....which is not a dribble at all. Perhaps a travel if the feet move, but not a dribble, either legal or illegal.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Is that not just like a player tossing the ball from hand to hand....which is not a dribble at all. Perhaps a travel if the feet move, but not a dribble, either legal or illegal.

Nope, it can't be because that's a completely different scenario that has nothing to do with the discussion. In the OP, Scrappy stated that the player started a dribble. That makes it a dribble. Therefore all answers to the OP should be predicated on the events ocurring after the start of the dribble. And by rule you can't travel during a dribble either, which I'm sure you well know.

By the OP according to Scrappy, we have a dribble that was touched twice before it hit the floor. The question that I'm pretty sure Scrappy is asking is whether that's legal or not if the ball touched the foot between the two touches. Maybe Scrappy can confirm that if he makes an appearance later.

The same answer should apply if this play happens after a player has made several dribbles. If a dribbler pushes the ball down, bounces it off his shoe straight up without it touching the floor and then pushes it back down again to the floor, would that be a legal dribble by rule? Same premise, same rules.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Nope, it can't be because that's a completely different scenario that has nothing to do with the discussion. In the OP, Scrappy stated that the player started a dribble. That makes it a dribble. Therefore all answers to the OP should be predicated on the events ocurring after the start of the dribble. And by rule you can't travel during a dribble either, which I'm sure you well know.

But in a past thread you have said one cannot call an illegal dribble violation until the ball returns from the floor and is touched a second time with the hand.
A second touch with the hand is not a part of the definition of a dribble. Pushing the ball to the floor is a part of the definition. This ball never touched the floor.

So?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

But in a past thread you have said one cannot call an illegal dribble violation until the ball returns from the floor and is touched a second time with the hand.
A second touch with the hand is not a part of the definition of a dribble. Pushing the ball to the floor is a part of the definition. This ball never touched the floor.

So?

Hmmm. Apparently, there's a second crux to this question. The rule clarifies that it's illegal "during a dribble." We all know the dribble starts when it's pushed to the floor, but if it never hits the floor, was it really the start of the dribble?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Hmmm. Apparently, there's a second crux to this question. The rule clarifies that it's illegal "during a dribble." We all know the dribble starts when it's pushed to the floor, but if it never hits the floor, was it really the start of the dribble?

By definition, no, unless we consider the ball hitting a foot on the floor to be the same as the ball hitting the floor. I think, in reality, it would be very difficult to say, seeing this ball hit a foot and pop straight back up, that it did not also touch the floor.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Hmmm. Apparently, there's a second crux to this question. The rule clarifies that it's illegal "during a dribble." We all know the dribble starts when it's pushed to the floor, but if it never hits the floor, was it really the start of the dribble?

Hmmmm. Do you really think Scrappy lied to you in the OP when he said that A1 released the ball to start a dribble? That's a given!

Why can't people just take Scrappy's question at face value instead of bringing in things that have got nothin to do with what he's asking? Scrappy said the dribble started. That's good enough for me. What constitutes the start of a dribble is a completely different conversation that has nothing to do with this thread.

Forget about the start of the dribble. Say A1 has dribbled 7 times. On his eighth dribble, he pushes the ball down, the ball hits his foot without touching the floor and goes straight back up, and then A1 pushes the ball to the floor again. Is that a violation, by rule, for touching the ball twice during the same dribble?

Unless I'm confused, that's what Scrappy's been asking from the git-go.