Ah, I'm following you now. The violation occurs when the ball is touched again by the hand, not when the ball touches the foot. Thanks for the clarification.

That's my understanding of the rule. You'd only have a violation if you called the dribbler for deliberately playing the ball with the foot(aka a deliberate kicked ball). But's that's a different scenario than the OP and a different violation entirely.

Yep, I was just having a brain cramp around what you were saying, not the rule. I was thinking you were arguing the second touching was when it hit the foot, which made no sense (obviously) to me. We agree.

In practice, it would have to be abundantly obvious the ball didn't hit the floor as well as the foot for me to call a violation.

Before reading the case play, my understanding of the rule was that not only did the player have to hit the ball twice with his hands between bounces, but it had to happen after he batted the ball "in the air."

The reasoning in the case play, however, leads one to your conclusion.

In practice, though, I'm not sure there's any way I'd be able to see the ball didn't hit the floor.

Is that not just like a player tossing the ball from hand to hand....which is not a dribble at all. Perhaps a travel if the feet move, but not a dribble, either legal or illegal.

Nope, it can't be because that's a completely different scenario that has nothing to do with the discussion. In the OP, Scrappy stated that the player started a dribble. That makes it a dribble. Therefore all answers to the OP should be predicated on the events ocurring after the start of the dribble. And by rule you can't travel during a dribble either, which I'm sure you well know.

By the OP according to Scrappy, we have a dribble that was touched twice before it hit the floor. The question that I'm pretty sure Scrappy is asking is whether that's legal or not if the ball touched the foot between the two touches. Maybe Scrappy can confirm that if he makes an appearance later.

The same answer should apply if this play happens after a player has made several dribbles. If a dribbler pushes the ball down, bounces it off his shoe straight up without it touching the floor and then pushes it back down again to the floor, would that be a legal dribble by rule? Same premise, same rules.

But in a past thread you have said one cannot call an illegal dribble violation until the ball returns from the floor and is touched a second time with the hand.
A second touch with the hand is not a part of the definition of a dribble. Pushing the ball to the floor is a part of the definition. This ball never touched the floor.

So?:confused:

Hmmm. Apparently, there's a second crux to this question. The rule clarifies that it's illegal "during a dribble." We all know the dribble starts when it's pushed to the floor, but if it never hits the floor, was it really the start of the dribble?

By definition, no, unless we consider the ball hitting a foot on the floor to be the same as the ball hitting the floor. I think, in reality, it would be very difficult to say, seeing this ball hit a foot and pop straight back up, that it did not also touch the floor.

Confused is a good description.

1)The past thread had dick-all to do with this one. Iirc it had something like a dribble being ended with a simultaneous two-hand touch followed by the dribbler pushing the ball to the floor again. That isn't a violation unless/until/if the dribbler touches the ball first again. Maybe you can find the old thread and check. Me? All i care about is getting answers to this thread. Care to participate?

2) Whatinthehell has "a second touch with the hand is not part of the definition of a dribble" got to do with anything? And the next 2 sentences are points that I made. What is your point?

Hmmmm. Do you really think Scrappy lied to you in the OP when he said that A1 released the ball to start a dribble? That's a given!

Why can't people just take Scrappy's question at face value instead of bringing in things that have got nothin to do with what he's asking? Scrappy said the dribble started. That's good enough for me. What constitutes the start of a dribble is a completely different conversation that has nothing to do with this thread.

Forget about the start of the dribble. Say A1 has dribbled 7 times. On his eighth dribble, he pushes the ball down, the ball hits his foot without touching the floor and goes straight back up, and then A1 pushes the ball to the floor again. Is that a violation, by rule, for touching the ball twice during the same dribble?

Unless I'm confused, that's what Scrappy's been asking from the git-go.

My point is, definition of a dribble contains "pushed to the floor" and this ball didn't touch the floor, so it wasn't a dribble.

If scrappy is offended by my question, he'll say so. Here's the OP:

Note, it never touches the floor. Sure, he released it to start the dribble, but when the ball never touches the floor, was it a dribble? I think it is relevant to the question.

Your altered situation removes one of my two points, to be sure. Now, the only question is whether a player has to bat the ball into the air in order for it to be a violation.

Sigh....

Then whatinthehell was it?

In the OP, Scrappy said it was a dribble. Now You're saying it isn't a dribble. Well, sorry. I knew Scrapper1. You sir, are no Scrapper1. I'll think I'll go with Scrappy.

Good...Lord.

That's all I can say.

I can't put the question any clearer guys.