The violation is stated in 4-15-2, "a player may bat the ball into the air" provided he does not touch it twice with his hands before it hits the floor. This is the only place I know of where the prohibition is spelled out.

Well.........yeah, I suppose so, but not exactly spelled out. It still does not say that the second touch ends the dribble, and the only violation in 9-5 is starting a second dribble after the first one has ended.

I see what you're getting at now. You're right, the violation isn't spelled out in the section on violations. And really, there's no penalty listed in 4-15-2. To me, the case play makes it clear what play 4-15-2 is referring to, so I'd be inclined not to call it a violation unless the ball was batted into the air first.

Got it. You're both saying it's legal for a player during the dribble to push the ball down to the floor and then reach down with the other hand and push the ball down again before it touched the floor from the first push. Doing so is perfectly legal because the ball was never batted into the air first.

Got it.

Well, you and JAR are certainly entitled to have your own opinions. And that's all I'm going to say about that. You already know my opinion.

I'm done.

It's not my opinion, it's how I read the rule. Although, I admit the wording in case play 4.15.4D confuses me. This case play is the only place where this is mentioned, there's no rule that correspondingly tells you it's a violation.

Without the case play, I wouldn't even question my reading of the rule. The only rule referenced is 9.5, which says nothing about this play; unless it somewhere states that touching the ball twice between bounces ends the dribble. Does it?

During the dribble is the key phrase. If a player is holding the ball, then pushes it toward the floor, he may do anything he wants before it hits the floor, so long as he has not moved his pivot foot.

He'll be back. He likes us.:D

It has everything to do with the conversation. If it wasn't really a dribble at all, then the rules about what can occur during a dribble are not relevant.

Think of the definition of a pass for a moment. It is defined as a pass only if it goes to (touches) another player. If the two rules have any consistency in the meanings of words, it wouldn't be a dribble unless it touched the floor. That said, I think the spirit of the rule would lead to it being a dribble when it goes off the foot after being deliberately released in that direction in the form of a dribble.

Well, I'd say that is traveling....based on the concept posed in the case play covering a player tossing the ball from hand to hand without moving their pivot foot. The basis behind the traveling rule is that a player may not move with the ball unless they're dribbling.

I disagree. The word is actually "into". Batted into the air is a direction.

You need to look back at the history of the game to know where this rule came from. At some time, long ago, the rules stated that a player couldn't run while holding the ball. There were no other restrictions. As a result, players would run while repeatedly tapping the ball into the air without letting it hit the floor. Still not happy with the balance of offense/defense, the rules were then revised to say that they could tap the ball into the air but couldn't touch it a second time before it hit the floor.

Once you know that history, it should become apparent that "into the air" is a direction.

All that said, a dribble is defined as pushing/batting the ball "to the floor". If it doesn't go to the floor, it is either not a dribble or an illegal dribble.

So It Has To Be True, Right ???
 

This is true. I know it's true because I saw it on the History Channel, right after Pawn Stars.