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Legal dribble or not?
A1 receives a pass and releases the ball to start a dribble. The ball hits the top of his foot, never touching the floor, and bounces straight up. A1 then bats the ball to the floor.
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Let's Play ...
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However? A1 receives a pass and releases the ball to start a dribble. The ball hits the top of his foot, never touching the floor, and bounces straight up. A1 then catches the ball with both hands, and starts a new dribble? What do you got? (Apologies to Bon Jovi) |
Hoops Too?
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Hmmm. (NFHS) 4-15-2 states a ball may be batted in the air as long as it is allowed to hit the floor before being hit a 2nd time. Does this player bat the ball "in the air?" I don't think so, but is that the only time a player isn't allowed to bat it twice before it hits the floor? It's the only one I could find.
Tentative answer: legal |
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Point, Counterpoint ...
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Is it a legal dribble when the ball bounces off the body and not the floor? At least we know that it's not a fumble, the accidental loss of player control when the ball unintentionally drops or slips from a player’s grasp. Your move. |
I would say illegal using 4.15.4.D plays a or c. I am thinking a coves it better though. Referring to billy's play
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4.15.4 situation d ...
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opponent, runs around the opponent, bats the ball to the floor and continues to dribble; (b) the ball bounces away but A1 is able to get to it and continues to dribble; (c) the ball hits A1’s foot and bounces away but A1 is able to overtake and pick it up; or (d) A1 fumbles the ball in ending the dribble so that A1 must run to recover it. RULING: Violation in (a), because the ball was touched twice by A1’s hand(s) during a dribble, before it touched the floor. In (b), even though the dribble was interrupted it has not ended and A1 may continue the dribble. In (c), the dribble ended when A1 caught the ball; and it ended in (d) when it was fumbled. Even though the dribble has ended in (c) and (d), A1 may recover the ball but may not dribble again. (9-5) |
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I Never Took My Finger Off The Chesspiece ...
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Your move. |
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Change the play, A1, during his dribble, bats the ball in the air over B1's head. He attempts to let it hit the floor legally before continuing the dribble, but his foot gets in the way. It hits his foot and bounces up, then he bats the ball to the floor and continues on his way. I've got a violatin here, he batted it in the air and hit it again with his hand prior to the ball hitting the floor. |
Deem ??? Where Did That Come From ???
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Check? |
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Can't Be Overiden, You Can Look It Up ...
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And anyway? I've already "deemed" this to be a fumble. Legally, there is no way in the world to override a deeming. |
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Checkmate |
Please Delete Your Checkmate ...
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Next year.:D |
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There Outta Be A Law ...
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By Definition, I Believe So ...
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Does the ball actually have to hit the floor for it to be a dribble? |
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And even if it is during the dribble, I see the ball hitting a foot the same as hitting the floor. What if it's an opponent's foot? It hits and comes straight back up to the dribbler's hand, (very unlikely I know, but no more unlikely than off his own foot) is this a violation? |
I'm Out ...
Anything that I deemed, I now undeem.
I don't have another move because I'm stuck on the floor. Literally. The "pushes the ball to the floor" part of the definition is confusing me. http://ts2.mm.bing.net/images/thumbn...8f40&index=ch1 |
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I'm Back In The Game Baby ...
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http://ts4.mm.bing.net/images/thumbn...907a&index=ch1 |
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I'm Out, Again ...
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Or are you a resident of JARlandia also? |
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Deal Me In ...
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Nobody has posted the correct response yet:
"You're saying that hit his foot? Huh." |
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Though this is the place to overthink this kind of stuff, in a game situation...I got nuthun. It's such a one in a million kind of play that nobody would ever bother to write a rule about it. And absent a rule, or a really obvious application of an existing rule, it's legal.
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It's Like An Alternative Universe ...
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There are 43 responses to the OP. You have 14 of them -- more than anyone else. Most are variations on the card game crap and add nothing to what is (at least to me) an interesting intellectual exercise. Cut it out. Please. Oh -- on the OP: I'm ruling it legal. |
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Cut it out. Please. |
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I personally like the elegance of saying that since he hit his foot he didn't push the ball to the floor but to his foot and therefore didn't start a dribble.
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Captain Kangaroo's Magic Words, Please, And Thank You ...
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Appreciate the "Please". Regarding the OP being legal, how about my followup situation? A1 receives a pass and releases the ball to start a dribble. The ball hits the top of his foot, never touching the floor, and bounces straight up. A1 then catches the ball with both hands, and starts a new dribble? What do you got? |
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In practice, I think I'd think the ball had hit the floor. |
Fumble, Dribble ...
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Fumble, Dribble ...
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After going through the dribble and travel rules, assuming that "to the floor" means the ball has to hit the floor to be a "dribble", the play is legal if the player doesnt travel before hand. If this would happen during a dribble, it would be a an illegal dribble in billy's play.
Though I think this play would only occur in bizzarro world because I still cannot imagine any situation to where a dribbler can do this without another player touching the ball. |
I'll take a try...
Kicked ball? My reason being, anyone able to get the ball to come immediately back to him may be doing some "purposeful maneuvering" meaning intent. I don't know that I would call that, nobody else has suggested it.
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Are you saying a player that: 1) it's legal to touch the ball twice before the ball hits the floor for the first time on a dribble? 2) A player can travel during a dribble? |
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Explanation as to why it's legal? Scrappy said that the ball was released to start a dribble and the ball was then touched twice by the dribbler before the ball hit the floor. That double-touch was during the same dribble, wasn't it? The definition of a "dribble" says that you push the ball to the floor, not to a foot. What am I missing? |
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Agree? |
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The usual understanding of a single dribble, again afaik, is hand--->floor---->hand. And if you touch the ball twice with a hand at any time between the total hand---->floor sequence, it's a violation. |
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If I'm misreading what Jurassic is arguing, then I need straightened out. Perhaps he's saying that the player catching the ball off his foot is the second touching? |
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In practice, it would have to be abundantly obvious the ball didn't hit the floor as well as the foot for me to call a violation. |
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The reasoning in the case play, however, leads one to your conclusion. In practice, though, I'm not sure there's any way I'd be able to see the ball didn't hit the floor. |
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By the OP according to Scrappy, we have a dribble that was touched twice before it hit the floor. The question that I'm pretty sure Scrappy is asking is whether that's legal or not if the ball touched the foot between the two touches. Maybe Scrappy can confirm that if he makes an appearance later. The same answer should apply if this play happens after a player has made several dribbles. If a dribbler pushes the ball down, bounces it off his shoe straight up without it touching the floor and then pushes it back down again to the floor, would that be a legal dribble by rule? Same premise, same rules. |
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A second touch with the hand is not a part of the definition of a dribble. Pushing the ball to the floor is a part of the definition. This ball never touched the floor. So?:confused: |
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1)The past thread had dick-all to do with this one. Iirc it had something like a dribble being ended with a simultaneous two-hand touch followed by the dribbler pushing the ball to the floor again. That isn't a violation unless/until/if the dribbler touches the ball first again. Maybe you can find the old thread and check. Me? All i care about is getting answers to this thread. Care to participate? 2) Whatinthehell has "a second touch with the hand is not part of the definition of a dribble" got to do with anything? And the next 2 sentences are points that I made. What is your point? |
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Why can't people just take Scrappy's question at face value instead of bringing in things that have got nothin to do with what he's asking? Scrappy said the dribble started. That's good enough for me. What constitutes the start of a dribble is a completely different conversation that has nothing to do with this thread. Forget about the start of the dribble. Say A1 has dribbled 7 times. On his eighth dribble, he pushes the ball down, the ball hits his foot without touching the floor and goes straight back up, and then A1 pushes the ball to the floor again. Is that a violation, by rule, for touching the ball twice during the same dribble? Unless I'm confused, that's what Scrappy's been asking from the git-go. |
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Your altered situation removes one of my two points, to be sure. Now, the only question is whether a player has to bat the ball into the air in order for it to be a violation. |
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Then whatinthehell was it? In the OP, Scrappy said it was a dribble. Now You're saying it isn't a dribble. Well, sorry. I knew Scrapper1. You sir, are no Scrapper1. I'll think I'll go with Scrappy. |
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That's all I can say. I can't put the question any clearer guys. |
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The question remains: Did A1 start a dribble when he pushed the ball to his foot? Why would this be any different than tossing the ball from one hand to another? Quote:
In the OP, A1 has not started a dribble (and, no Scrappy didn't lie about it) and in your scenario A1 has touched the ball twice with his hands without letting it touch the floor. |
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In the situation above, is this a violation or no? And if not, why not? For the record, I say it is because the ball was touched twice during a dribble. |
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I think doing it on purpose would be a kicking violation, sort of like a player letting the ball hit his foot and roll up his leg to gain control.
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The question is, does a violation of 4-15-2 require the ball to be batted "in the air," as the rule states? Or, is it a violation to touch the ball twice with the hands "during a dribble," meaning any dribble, per case play 4.15.4D? Those three words in the case play seem to add a bit to the rule. |
Just to complicate matters more:
A1 dribbling down the court, bats the ball (legally) over B1's head. Instead of allowing it to bounce, however, he catches it. Violation? |
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Nobody There To Hear It ???
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It should be mentioned (shouldn't it?) that this one where the case book adds totally another dimension to the rule. The illegal dribble violation in the rule book is for only ending a dribble and starting another. 4.15.4 D as noted above states it is a violation for the ball being touched twice by A1's hand(s) during a dribble. Yet touching it twice does not end the dribble. So why is this a violation? This being said, I have always called/seen it called for two touches, regardless of the direction. In other words, a bat over the head (upward) is not necessary. What I see most often is the ball slapped horizontally from one hand to the other, then pushed to the floor.
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Got it. Well, you and JAR are certainly entitled to have your own opinions. And that's all I'm going to say about that. You already know my opinion. I'm done. |
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Without the case play, I wouldn't even question my reading of the rule. The only rule referenced is 9.5, which says nothing about this play; unless it somewhere states that touching the ball twice between bounces ends the dribble. Does it? |
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Once you know that history, it should become apparent that "into the air" is a direction. All that said, a dribble is defined as pushing/batting the ball "to the floor". If it doesn't go to the floor, it is either not a dribble or an illegal dribble. |
So It Has To Be True, Right ???
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