Dead ball Holding - sitch

mick · #1 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 25, 2002, 03:49pm

Lead is about to administer an endline throw-in to Team A, but Lead is still holding the ball.
A2 prematurely starts her part of the "In-bound" play and gets grabbed by B2.
Center made a holding call.

What's your call?

bard · #2 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 25, 2002, 04:06pm

Explain to Center that ball hadn't been handed over, tell the players to chill, and start over?

DrakeM · #3 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 25, 2002, 04:06pm

Mick,
Since we have a dead ball, you could call a "T", but it's also possible to call an intentional foul here.
I had a play acouple of years ago with less than :10 in the game where Team A lined up in a straight line for a throw in, the thrower in got the ball from the official, and as the guard broke towards the basket, he was grabbed (jersey stretched) from behind by the
defender. I called the intentional foul. The coach of B didn't like it, but what other purpose was the defender achieving other than fouling to prevent an easy layup by Team A? Obviously you need to make the determination
as to intentional or not. In this game A was only up by a couple of points so it was not a popular call with Team B. but oh well. In my view it was the right call.
Sometimes, you also have to weigh the severity of the penalty
when deciding what to assess.
Example. The NBA has an elbow foul that is two free throws and play off the second whether made or missed.
That is for an elbow foul below the shoulder level.
IF above, it CAN be an ejection, but the penalty is still only two shots! Most of the time if there is an elbow to the head, a flagrant foul is called. Two shots, PLUS possession to the offended team.
In your case, if being played under NF rules, the penalty for intentional and technical are the same so it's all up to you. Now, the player who fouled may already have a "T" which could now lead to an ejection. So that's another thing to consider.
Boy , I'm rambling.
If I'm off base with what you're looking for, let me know.
Drake

RookieDude · #4 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 25, 2002, 05:57pm

Quote:

Originally posted by mick
Lead is about to administer an endline throw-in to Team A, but Lead is still holding the ball.
A2 prematurely starts her part of the "In-bound" play and gets grabbed by B2.
Center made a holding call.

What's your call?

Call has already been made...remember, you "live and die with it".
I don't like the call at all, but I believe it will look worse to change Center's foul call to a no call...unless by some great chance you can sell the hold as "not intentional" since the ball was dead.
I have to say I also do not like DrakeM's intentional foul call with :10 seconds left, live ball and in a tight ball game.
Call the "Hold" and don't look "over officious"!

RD

ChuckElias · #5 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 25, 2002, 06:00pm

Quote:

Originally posted by DrakeM
I had a play acouple of years ago with less than :10 in the game where Team A lined up in a straight line for a throw in, the thrower in got the ball from the official, and as the guard broke towards the basket, he was grabbed (jersey stretched) from behind by the
defender. I called the intentional foul.

With under 2 minutes in the game, shouldn't this have been an away-from-the-play foul?

One shot for anybody on the floor at the time, and then possession at the same OOB spot.

Seriously, tho, Drake, in your case under NF rules, you can call that intentional, but it has to be an intentional technical. Dead ball contact cannot be a personal foul by rule. So you go with the T, and the intentional part really doesn't make a difference. I totally agree with your reasoning in making the call (obviously done on purpose) tho.

Chuck

RookieDude · #6 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 25, 2002, 06:06pm

Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Quote:

Originally posted by DrakeM
I had a play acouple of years ago with less than :10 in the game where Team A lined up in a straight line for a throw in, the thrower in got the ball from the official, and as the guard broke towards the basket, he was grabbed (jersey stretched) from behind by the
defender. I called the intentional foul.

With under 2 minutes in the game, shouldn't this have been an away-from-the-play foul? One shot for anybody on the floor at the time, and then possession at the same OOB spot.

Seriously, tho, Drake, in your case under NF rules, you can call that intentional, but it has to be an intentional technical. Dead ball contact cannot be a personal foul by rule. So you go with the T, and the intentional part really doesn't make a difference. I totally agree with your reasoning in making the call (obviously done on purpose) tho.

Chuck

It wasn't a dead ball...the player had the ball for the throw in...thus live ball foul..."Holding"
Of course you can have an intentional foul during a live ball...but again, I call Holding in this sitch.

RD

[Edited by RookieDude on Oct 25th, 2002 at 06:22 PM]

Dan_ref · #7 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 25, 2002, 07:14pm

Quote:

Originally posted by RookieDude

Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Quote:

Originally posted by DrakeM
I had a play acouple of years ago with less than :10 in the game where Team A lined up in a straight line for a throw in, the thrower in got the ball from the official, and as the guard broke towards the basket, he was grabbed (jersey stretched) from behind by the
defender. I called the intentional foul.

With under 2 minutes in the game, shouldn't this have been an away-from-the-play foul? One shot for anybody on the floor at the time, and then possession at the same OOB spot.

Seriously, tho, Drake, in your case under NF rules, you can call that intentional, but it has to be an intentional technical. Dead ball contact cannot be a personal foul by rule. So you go with the T, and the intentional part really doesn't make a difference. I totally agree with your reasoning in making the call (obviously done on purpose) tho.

Chuck

It wasn't a dead ball...the player had the ball for the throw in...thus live ball foul..."Holding"
Of course you can have an intentional foul during a live ball...but again, I call Holding in this sitch.

RD

[Edited by RookieDude on Oct 25th, 2002 at 06:22 PM]

I think the original play says the lead is still holding the
ball, so it's gotta be a T (it shoulda been a nothing
but there was a whistle and a raised fist).

Test time: Team B is in the bonus. A1 has the ball for
the throw-in. A2 holds B2 to get A3 open for the inbounds
pass. Foul is called. What happens next under NF & NCAA
rules?

Jurassic Referee · #8 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 25, 2002, 07:31pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref
Test time: Team B is in the bonus. A1 has the ball for
the throw-in. A2 holds B2 to get A3 open for the inbounds
pass. Foul is called. What happens next under NF & NCAA
rules? [/B]

You bury the survivors in Canada!

Dan_ref · #9 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 25, 2002, 07:35pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref
Test time: Team B is in the bonus. A1 has the ball for
the throw-in. A2 holds B2 to get A3 open for the inbounds
pass. Foul is called. What happens next under NF & NCAA
rules?

You bury the survivors in Canada! [/B]

Thanks. Now I have to clean adult beverage off my monitor, and keyboard, and desk....

mick · #10 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 25, 2002, 07:44pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref
Test time: Team B is in the bonus. A1 has the ball for
the throw-in. A2 holds B2 to get A3 open for the inbounds
pass. Foul is called. What happens next under NF & NCAA
rules?

You bury the survivors in Canada!

Thanks. Now I have to clean adult beverage off my monitor, and keyboard, and desk....

[/B]

Geez!
Pass the Windex.

ChuckElias · #11 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 25, 2002, 07:57pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias

With under 2 minutes in the game, shouldn't this have been an away-from-the-play foul? One shot for anybody on the floor at the time, and then possession at the same OOB spot.

Chuck

I think the original play says the lead is still holding the
ball, so it's gotta be a T (it shoulda been a nothing
but there was a whistle and a raised fist).

Test time: Team B is in the bonus. A1 has the ball for
the throw-in. A2 holds B2 to get A3 open for the inbounds
pass. Foul is called. What happens next under NF & NCAA
rules?

Rookie Dude, Dan is correct on all counts. In the original sitch, the official still had the ball. That's why my serious answer said it had to be a T.

My "away-from-the-play" comment was just for Drake, b/c that's an NBA rule and Drake works the WNBA.

Chuck

RookieDude · #12 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 25, 2002, 08:06pm

I understand...but, it dosen't HAVE TO be a T...just an intentional foul.

RD

Dan_ref · #13 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 25, 2002, 08:09pm

Quote:

Originally posted by RookieDude
I understand...but, it dosen't HAVE TO be a T...just an intentional foul.

RD

A dead ball foul is a T. On a throw in, the ball is
dead UNTIL the ball is handed to the player throwing it in.
In this play it has to be a T, it could be an intentional T.

Jurassic Referee · #14 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 25, 2002, 08:15pm

Quote:

Originally posted by RookieDude
I understand...but, it dosen't HAVE TO be a T...just an intentional foul.

RD

Read R4-19-5c-"a technical foul is an intentional or flagrant contact foul while the ball is dead".
Trust Dan and Chuck!

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Oct 25th, 2002 at 08:23 PM]

Jurassic Referee · #15 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 25, 2002, 08:23pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref
Test time: Team B is in the bonus. A1 has the ball for
the throw-in. A2 holds B2 to get A3 open for the inbounds
pass. Foul is called. What happens next under NF & NCAA
rules? [/B]

1)NF-Personal foul on A2. B2 will shoot bonus FT's.
2)NCAA-team control foul on A2.B gets ball OOB for throw in.(I think).

How'd I do on the NCAA one,Slappy?