Help with a rule.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Nobody is talking about touching the ball, during a throw-in, or any other time. Nobody is talking about touching anybody in the face.

The ball rolls loose in the lane. A1 picks it up right in front of the rim. B1 bodies up, hands straight up, trying to prevent a shot attempt. As A1 comes up from the floor with the ball in both hands, he places the ball against B1's chest, gives him a subtle push, just enough to cause B1 to take a step back, then goes up and dunks.

The fact that he pushed using the ball in both hands, rather than extending only one hand and pushing with it, does not change the play. Conceivably, if the official is behind A1, it might be impossible to tell the difference.

And it goes right back to.....

Can you cite a rule that states you can have a personal foul without having any illegal contact with an opponent when the ball is live a la 4-19-1? Can you cite a rule or interp that states that contact with the ball is the same as contact with the body? And we already have a rule that states that contact with a thrown ball is a technical foul. Can you cite a rule or interp that states that rule doesn't apply to a ball being held by a player?

Still waiting for rules instead of opinions......

If A1 pushes off with the ball and the only contact is with the ball and you feel an unfair advantage was gained, by rule you have an unsporting non-contact foul by B1 as per rule 4-19-5(b). At no time did A1 make any physical contact with any of his body parts on B1.

Edited to say: JAR, go back and read my edited post #36 above and answer those questions re: hand part of the ball.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Can you cite a rule or interp that states that contact with the ball is the same as contact with the body?

Can you cite one which says it isn't?

If A1 pushes off with the ball and the only contact is with the ball and you feel an unfair advantage was gained, by rule you have an unsporting non-contact foul by B1 as per rule 4-19-5(b).

An unsporting foul is a noncontact technical foul which consists of unfair, unethical, dishonorable conduct or any behavior not in accordance with the spirit of fair play.

Clearly, the play at hand involves none of these.

At no time did A1 make any physical contact with any of his body parts on B1.

No rule specifies the contact must be "with a body part."

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

1) Can you cite one which says it isn't?

2) An unsporting foul is a noncontact technical foul which consists of unfair, unethical, dishonorable conduct or any behavior not in accordance with the spirit of fair play.

Clearly, the play at hand involves none of these.

1) Yup and I already have. Case book play 10.3.6SitB and rules 4-19-1 and 4-19-5(b).

2)Pushing a player with the ball to gain an unfair advantage is unfair, unethical, dishonorable and not in accordance with the spirit of fair play. And that's why I'd call it a "T". Clearly the play at hand involves all of those. Well, that and the fact that the rules won't let me call it a personal foul because there was no actual physical contact by the fouling player.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1) Case book play 10.3.6SitB

Holding the ball, giving a subtle push to the torso. Throwing the ball, striking the opponent in the face. Yep, exact same thing. Great comparison.

2)Pushing a player with the ball to gain an unfair advantage is unfair, unethical, dishonorable and not in accordance with the spirit of fair play.

But that exact same push with the bare hand is a common foul.

And that's why I'd call it a "T". Clearly the play at hand involves all of those. Well, that and the fact that the rules won't let me call it a personal foul because there was no actual physical contact by the fouling player.

Actual physical contact is not a term which is mentioned, let alone defined, in anything you have cited.