Help with a rule.

[Bishopcolle]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

JR:

A1 is holding a live ball. B1 has a LGP against A1 just short of contact. A1, while holding the ball, shoves B1 in the chest, and displaces B1. What say you?

MTD, Sr.

I say, even though the ball contacted him, since it was still in A1's hands, it is illegal offensive contact by A1. He didn't throw it, he held it and shoved it, fully controlling the contact. PC.....

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Bishopcolle

I say, even though the ball contacted him, since it was still in A1's hands, it is illegal offensive contact by A1. He didn't throw it, he held it and shoved it, fully controlling the contact. PC.....

And if a defender on a throw-in reaches through the plane and contacts the ball in the thrower's hands, using similar logic you'd also call a personal foul on the defender because the defender fully controlled the contact with the ball?

what's the difference with that and the situation where A1 deliberately throws the ball at B1's face? Are you saying using similar logic that should be a personal foul also because A1 controlled the contact?

[Bishopcolle]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And if a defender on a throw-in reaches through the plane and contacts the ball in the thrower's hands, using similar logic you'd also call a personal foul on the defender because the defender fully controlled the contact with the ball?

what's the difference with that and the situation where A1 deliberately throws the ball at B1's face? Are you saying using similar logic that should be a personal foul also because A1 controlled the contact?

In your example, the defender initiated the contact with the ball, and by rule that is a technical foul. Also, the way I read it, A1 didn't throw (but held, and that is a big difference) the ball, and he shoved B1 with the ball. I see that as a offensive push. I may be wrong (have been before), but I can't see me showing the big "T" sign and banging that as a technical. An easier (and correct sell, I think) call is the PC Push....Again, I may be wrong, but that is my take....open for instruction, as always....

[Adam]

In both situations, contact is made with the ball. While our instincts may tell us it makes a difference if the player is still holding it, the rules don't really give us that distinction.

Since, in the case of MTD's play, the least you would go is intentional anyway, the only differences are:
1. anyone can shoot.
2. spot of the throw-in.
3. the offender will have one T towards DQ.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Bishopcolle

In your example, the defender initiated the contact with the ball, and by rule that is a technical foul. Also, the way I read it, A1 didn't throw (but held, and that is a big difference) the ball, and he shoved B1 with the ball. I see that as a offensive push. I may be wrong (have been before), but I can't see me showing the big "T" sign and banging that as a technical. An easier (and correct sell, I think) call is the PC Push....Again, I may be wrong, but that is my take....open for instruction, as always....

What's the difference if the ball is the only thing that makes contact with an opponent if the ball is thrown or held? In both cases, isn't the only contact on the play being made by the ball, whether the ball was thrown or held? And we already know as per case book play 10.3.6SitB that a thrown ball making contact with an opponent's face is a technical foul for an unsporting act.

My instruction is to try and find a rule that will allow you to call a personal foul when there is no physical contact by the player committing that personal foul. The definition of a personal foul as per 4-19-1 is that it's illegal contact with an opponent while the ball is live. In the play being discussed, the thrower never contacted his opponent; the ball did. And that holds true whether the ball is held or thrown.

[Bishopcolle]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

What's the difference if the ball is the only thing that makes contact with an opponent if the ball is thrown or held? In both cases, isn't the only contact on the play being made by the ball, whether the ball was thrown or held? And we already know as per case book play 10.3.6SitB that a thrown ball making contact with an opponent's face is a technical foul for an unsporting act.

My instruction is to try and find a rule that will allow you to call a personal foul when there is no physical contact by the player committing that personal foul. The definition of a personal foul as per 4-19-1 is that it's illegal contact with an opponent while the ball is live. In the play being discussed, the thrower never contacted his opponent; the ball did. And that holds true whether the ball is held or thrown.

Well again, I am willing to learn. But question? When the dribbler uses his forearm to push the guard away, that is a PC. I still think the ball in is hand being used to push the guard away is the same as though it were his hand or arm, and constitutes illegal contact by the dribbler. A PC call.I grant you that the contact by the ball muddies the water, but (in your mind...see it...see it...) can you see yourself calling this push with the ball as a Technical foul? I sure can't...and the fact that he has used the ball to do the pushing doesn't make it a non-contact foul. Throwing it, yes....holding it and pushing, no.....Am I alone in this interpretation? If so, I repent and will change my views......Thanks for the good input.....

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Bishopcolle

But question? When the dribbler uses his forearm to push the guard away, that is a PC. I still think the ball in is hand being used to push the guard away is the same as though it were his hand or arm, and constitutes illegal contact by the dribbler. A PC call.

How can it be the same when in one situation the contact is with the forearm and in the other situation the contact is with the ball?

How do you explain the situation on a throw-in where a defender reaches over the plane of the line and (1) contacts the ball, or (2) contacts the player? Same concept during a live ball, isn't it? And the rules are consistent too. Contact with the thrower is a personal foul. Contact with the ball is a technical foul. And note the ball hasn't been thrown in that situation either; the thrower is still holding it.

The problem is that we can't think. We have to use the available rules. And I'm not aware of any rule extant that would allow any official to call a personal foul without the player being called for the foul making physical contact with some part of his body on the opponent that he fouled. If someone can cite me a rule instead of an opinion though to the contrary, I'm willing to learn also.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Bishopcolle

I say, even though the ball contacted him, since it was still in A1's hands, it is illegal offensive contact by A1. He didn't throw it, he held it and shoved it, fully controlling the contact. PC.....

No way you go with a PC here. Even if you want to call a personal foul, you need to go intentional or nothing.

Let me add this:
If the call is an intentional personal foul, then you should call a PC foul if the ball handler does the same thing inadvertently. I don't think anyone would even consider this. Would you call a foul on the defender who blocks a shot or pass and pushes the ball with such force that it knocks the ball handler to the floor?
The fact is the infraction is unsporting in nature.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Bishopcolle

I say, even though the ball contacted him, since it was still in A1's hands, it is illegal offensive contact by A1. He didn't throw it, he held it and shoved it, fully controlling the contact. PC.....

+1 I'm with you Bishop. 10-6-2: A player shall not contact an opponent with his hand unless such contact is only with the opponent's hand while it is on the ball and is incidental in an attempt to play the ball.

This is often expressed in laymen's terms: Your hand on the ball is part of the ball. As far as I'm concerned, in this case the ball is part of the hand.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by just another ref

+1 I'm with you Bishop. 10-6-2: A player shall not contact an opponent with his hand unless such contact is only with the opponent's hand while it is on the ball and is incidental in an attempt to play the ball.

This is often expressed in laymen's terms: Your hand on the ball is part of the ball. As far as I'm concerned, in this case the ball is part of the hand.

LOL! Not even close.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

LOL! Not even close.

What does this mean?

10-6-1: A player shall not.....push an opponent by extending arm(s).............

That's exactly what happened here. This is not even close to anything under player technical.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by just another ref

What does this mean?

10-6-1: A player shall not.....push an opponent by extending arm(s).............

That's exactly what happened here. This is not even close to anything under player technical.

It's also not anywhere close to being a personal foul.

Originally Posted by just another ref

Can you cite one which says it isn't?

Sure.

A personal foul is a player foul which involves illegal contact with an opponent while the ball is live.

Illegal contact is addressed under 10-6, where nothing defines contact as touching an opponent with the ball. All articles address illegal personal contact.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

It's also not anywhere close to being a personal foul.

So are you saying it's a no call?

All articles address illegal personal contact.

What exactly is personal contact, and where is it defined?

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by just another ref

So are you saying it's a no call?

Yes. If an opponent puts a ball in my chest, I'm going to grab it. Whop thinks any player is not going to try to do that?

What exactly is personal contact, and where is it defined?

You can read all about illegal contact and how it involves contact with parts of the body on an opponent in 10-6.

Let me know when you get to the part that says contacting an opponent with the ball is defined as contact.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

+1 I'm with you Bishop. 10-6-2: A player shall not contact an opponent with his hand unless such contact is only with the opponent's hand while it is on the ball and is incidental in an attempt to play the ball.

This is often expressed in laymen's terms: Your hand on the ball is part of the ball. As far as I'm concerned, in this case the ball is part of the hand.

So if a defender reaches over the plane and touches the ball in the thrower's hand during a throw-in, according to that logic it has to be a personal foul?

Is there a rule that says "A player shall not contact an opponent with his FACE unless such such contact by his FACE is only with his opponent's hand while it is on the ball and is incidental in an attempt to play the ball." I can't remember seeing any rule like that. But hey, I'm only a layman. Us laymen can't figger out what a rule saying what a defender can legally do to an opponent holding the ball relates to what an opponent holding the ball can legally do to a defender. You are aware I hope that the red-highlighted "your" above refers to the offensive player's hand on the ball, not the defender's hand...or the defender's face on the ball.

Got it, JAR.

And thanks for playing.