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We're all (as in a whole bunch of us) pointing out to you that the specific statement you made the we couldn't call a technical foul because the ball was live is completely wrong by rule. When you say you can "see our point", does that mean that you're still insisting that it has to be a personal foul of some kind because the ball was live even though you can NEVER have a personal foul without contact by rules definition? Or is that a very well disguised admission that you were completely wrong in your understanding of the rules? Just trying to clarify where you stand now. |
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JR: A1 is holding a live ball. B1 has a LGP against A1 just short of contact. A1, while holding the ball, shoves B1 in the chest, and displaces B1. What say you? MTD, Sr.
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Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn. Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn. Ohio Assn. of Basketball Officials International Assn. of Approved Bkb. Officials Ohio High School Athletic Association Toledo, Ohio |
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Just to clarify, the difference between this and the OP is that in your play, the player is holding the ball the whole time whereas in the OP, the ball is thrown.
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Sprinkles are for winners. |
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No brainer by rule. Unsporting technical foul. |
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I say, even though the ball contacted him, since it was still in A1's hands, it is illegal offensive contact by A1. He didn't throw it, he held it and shoved it, fully controlling the contact. PC.....
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what's the difference with that and the situation where A1 deliberately throws the ball at B1's face? Are you saying using similar logic that should be a personal foul also because A1 controlled the contact? Last edited by Jurassic Referee; Sat Jan 22, 2011 at 04:19pm. |
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In both situations, contact is made with the ball. While our instincts may tell us it makes a difference if the player is still holding it, the rules don't really give us that distinction.
Since, in the case of MTD's play, the least you would go is intentional anyway, the only differences are: 1. anyone can shoot. 2. spot of the throw-in. 3. the offender will have one T towards DQ.
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Sprinkles are for winners. |
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Let me add this: If the call is an intentional personal foul, then you should call a PC foul if the ball handler does the same thing inadvertently. I don't think anyone would even consider this. Would you call a foul on the defender who blocks a shot or pass and pushes the ball with such force that it knocks the ball handler to the floor? The fact is the infraction is unsporting in nature.
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Sprinkles are for winners. Last edited by Adam; Sat Jan 22, 2011 at 05:50pm. |
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I was assuming that throwing a ball at someone could be construed as "contact". I stand corrected. |
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My instruction is to try and find a rule that will allow you to call a personal foul when there is no physical contact by the player committing that personal foul. The definition of a personal foul as per 4-19-1 is that it's illegal contact with an opponent while the ball is live. In the play being discussed, the thrower never contacted his opponent; the ball did. And that holds true whether the ball is held or thrown. |
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How do you explain the situation on a throw-in where a defender reaches over the plane of the line and (1) contacts the ball, or (2) contacts the player? Same concept during a live ball, isn't it? And the rules are consistent too. Contact with the thrower is a personal foul. Contact with the ball is a technical foul. And note the ball hasn't been thrown in that situation either; the thrower is still holding it. The problem is that we can't think. We have to use the available rules. And I'm not aware of any rule extant that would allow any official to call a personal foul without the player being called for the foul making physical contact with some part of his body on the opponent that he fouled. If someone can cite me a rule instead of an opinion though to the contrary, I'm willing to learn also. |
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