Help with a rule.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Bishopcolle

I say, even though the ball contacted him, since it was still in A1's hands, it is illegal offensive contact by A1. He didn't throw it, he held it and shoved it, fully controlling the contact. PC.....

+1 I'm with you Bishop. 10-6-2: A player shall not contact an opponent with his hand unless such contact is only with the opponent's hand while it is on the ball and is incidental in an attempt to play the ball.

This is often expressed in laymen's terms: Your hand on the ball is part of the ball. As far as I'm concerned, in this case the ball is part of the hand.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by just another ref

+1 I'm with you Bishop. 10-6-2: A player shall not contact an opponent with his hand unless such contact is only with the opponent's hand while it is on the ball and is incidental in an attempt to play the ball.

This is often expressed in laymen's terms: Your hand on the ball is part of the ball. As far as I'm concerned, in this case the ball is part of the hand.

LOL! Not even close.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

LOL! Not even close.

What does this mean?

10-6-1: A player shall not.....push an opponent by extending arm(s).............

That's exactly what happened here. This is not even close to anything under player technical.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by just another ref

What does this mean?

10-6-1: A player shall not.....push an opponent by extending arm(s).............

That's exactly what happened here. This is not even close to anything under player technical.

It's also not anywhere close to being a personal foul.

Originally Posted by just another ref

Can you cite one which says it isn't?

Sure.

A personal foul is a player foul which involves illegal contact with an opponent while the ball is live.

Illegal contact is addressed under 10-6, where nothing defines contact as touching an opponent with the ball. All articles address illegal personal contact.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

It's also not anywhere close to being a personal foul.

So are you saying it's a no call?

All articles address illegal personal contact.

What exactly is personal contact, and where is it defined?

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by just another ref

So are you saying it's a no call?

Yes. If an opponent puts a ball in my chest, I'm going to grab it. Whop thinks any player is not going to try to do that?

What exactly is personal contact, and where is it defined?

You can read all about illegal contact and how it involves contact with parts of the body on an opponent in 10-6.

Let me know when you get to the part that says contacting an opponent with the ball is defined as contact.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Yes. If an opponent puts a ball in my chest, I'm going to grab it. Whop thinks any player is not going to try to do that?

I agree that any player would try to do that, but in this case he didn't, so it's a moot point.

You can read all about illegal contact and how it involves contact with parts of the body on an opponent in 10-6.

Right, all except 10-6-1 which does not specify which part made the contact.
.....shall not impede the progress of an opponent by extending the arm(s).....
The contact in this example is often with the hands, or in one particular case, the ball.

Let me know when you get to the part that says contacting an opponent with the ball is defined as contact.

Obviously, this issue is not directly addressed in any of the books, so one must interpret the available rules. I guess that's what we're doing.

Has this come up before? I seem to remember a play, here or in real life, where the thrower-in used the ball to back the defender off the line.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

+1 I'm with you Bishop. 10-6-2: A player shall not contact an opponent with his hand unless such contact is only with the opponent's hand while it is on the ball and is incidental in an attempt to play the ball.

This is often expressed in laymen's terms: Your hand on the ball is part of the ball. As far as I'm concerned, in this case the ball is part of the hand.

So if a defender reaches over the plane and touches the ball in the thrower's hand during a throw-in, according to that logic it has to be a personal foul?

Is there a rule that says "A player shall not contact an opponent with his FACE unless such such contact by his FACE is only with his opponent's hand while it is on the ball and is incidental in an attempt to play the ball." I can't remember seeing any rule like that. But hey, I'm only a layman. Us laymen can't figger out what a rule saying what a defender can legally do to an opponent holding the ball relates to what an opponent holding the ball can legally do to a defender. You are aware I hope that the red-highlighted "your" above refers to the offensive player's hand on the ball, not the defender's hand...or the defender's face on the ball.

Got it, JAR.

And thanks for playing.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

So if a defender reaches over the plane and touches the ball in the thrower's hand during a throw-in, according to that logic it has to be a personal foul?

Have you got a rule that says "A player shall not contact an opponent with his FACE unless such such contact by his FACE is only with his opponent's hand while it is on the ball and is incidental in an attempt to play the ball." I can't remember seeing any rule like that.

Got it, JAR.

And thanks for playing.

Nobody is talking about touching the ball, during a throw-in, or any other time. Nobody is talking about touching anybody in the face.

The ball rolls loose in the lane. A1 picks it up right in front of the rim. B1 bodies up, hands straight up, trying to prevent a shot attempt. As A1 comes up from the floor with the ball in both hands, he places the ball against B1's chest, gives him a subtle push, just enough to cause B1 to take a step back, then goes up and dunks.

The fact that he pushed using the ball in both hands, rather than extending only one hand and pushing with it, does not change the play. Conceivably, if the official is behind A1, it might be impossible to tell the difference.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Nobody is talking about touching the ball, during a throw-in, or any other time. Nobody is talking about touching anybody in the face.

The ball rolls loose in the lane. A1 picks it up right in front of the rim. B1 bodies up, hands straight up, trying to prevent a shot attempt. As A1 comes up from the floor with the ball in both hands, he places the ball against B1's chest, gives him a subtle push, just enough to cause B1 to take a step back, then goes up and dunks.

The fact that he pushed using the ball in both hands, rather than extending only one hand and pushing with it, does not change the play. Conceivably, if the official is behind A1, it might be impossible to tell the difference.

And it goes right back to.....

Can you cite a rule that states you can have a personal foul without having any illegal contact with an opponent when the ball is live a la 4-19-1? Can you cite a rule or interp that states that contact with the ball is the same as contact with the body? And we already have a rule that states that contact with a thrown ball is a technical foul. Can you cite a rule or interp that states that rule doesn't apply to a ball being held by a player?

Still waiting for rules instead of opinions......

If A1 pushes off with the ball and the only contact is with the ball and you feel an unfair advantage was gained, by rule you have an unsporting non-contact foul by B1 as per rule 4-19-5(b). At no time did A1 make any physical contact with any of his body parts on B1.

Edited to say: JAR, go back and read my edited post #36 above and answer those questions re: hand part of the ball.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Can you cite a rule or interp that states that contact with the ball is the same as contact with the body?

Can you cite one which says it isn't?

If A1 pushes off with the ball and the only contact is with the ball and you feel an unfair advantage was gained, by rule you have an unsporting non-contact foul by B1 as per rule 4-19-5(b).

An unsporting foul is a noncontact technical foul which consists of unfair, unethical, dishonorable conduct or any behavior not in accordance with the spirit of fair play.

Clearly, the play at hand involves none of these.

At no time did A1 make any physical contact with any of his body parts on B1.

No rule specifies the contact must be "with a body part."

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

1) Can you cite one which says it isn't?

2) An unsporting foul is a noncontact technical foul which consists of unfair, unethical, dishonorable conduct or any behavior not in accordance with the spirit of fair play.

Clearly, the play at hand involves none of these.

1) Yup and I already have. Case book play 10.3.6SitB and rules 4-19-1 and 4-19-5(b).

2)Pushing a player with the ball to gain an unfair advantage is unfair, unethical, dishonorable and not in accordance with the spirit of fair play. And that's why I'd call it a "T". Clearly the play at hand involves all of those. Well, that and the fact that the rules won't let me call it a personal foul because there was no actual physical contact by the fouling player.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1) Case book play 10.3.6SitB

Holding the ball, giving a subtle push to the torso. Throwing the ball, striking the opponent in the face. Yep, exact same thing. Great comparison.

2)Pushing a player with the ball to gain an unfair advantage is unfair, unethical, dishonorable and not in accordance with the spirit of fair play.

But that exact same push with the bare hand is a common foul.

And that's why I'd call it a "T". Clearly the play at hand involves all of those. Well, that and the fact that the rules won't let me call it a personal foul because there was no actual physical contact by the fouling player.

Actual physical contact is not a term which is mentioned, let alone defined, in anything you have cited.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Nobody is talking about touching anybody in the face.

I'm talking about the ball touching somebody in the face. But I don't really care where the ball touches the defender. The fact is that it's the ball touching the defender that we're discussing, not the player holding the ball touching the defender with any part of his body. That never happened. Again, the fact is that the only contact on the defender is with the ball.

Clear on that now?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I'm talking about the ball touching somebody in the face. But I don't really care where the ball touches the defender. The fact is that it's the ball touching the defender that we're discussing, not the player holding the ball touching the defender with any part of his body. That never happened. Again, the fact is that the only contact on the defender is with the ball.

Clear on that now?

No, I'm not clear why you brought up the face.

Is there a rule that says "A player shall not contact an opponent with his FACE unless such such contact by his FACE is only with his opponent's hand while it is on the ball and is incidental in an attempt to play the ball."