Help with a rule.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Bishopcolle

I say, even though the ball contacted him, since it was still in A1's hands, it is illegal offensive contact by A1. He didn't throw it, he held it and shoved it, fully controlling the contact. PC.....

+1 I'm with you Bishop. 10-6-2: A player shall not contact an opponent with his hand unless such contact is only with the opponent's hand while it is on the ball and is incidental in an attempt to play the ball.

This is often expressed in laymen's terms: Your hand on the ball is part of the ball. As far as I'm concerned, in this case the ball is part of the hand.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by just another ref

+1 I'm with you Bishop. 10-6-2: A player shall not contact an opponent with his hand unless such contact is only with the opponent's hand while it is on the ball and is incidental in an attempt to play the ball.

This is often expressed in laymen's terms: Your hand on the ball is part of the ball. As far as I'm concerned, in this case the ball is part of the hand.

LOL! Not even close.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Bishopcolle

I say, even though the ball contacted him, since it was still in A1's hands, it is illegal offensive contact by A1. He didn't throw it, he held it and shoved it, fully controlling the contact. PC.....

What if one offical calls it a PC, one calls it an unsporting T and the third calls it a block because the defender didn't have LGP?

BlargeT?

[refiator]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

To be fair, you didn't add that caveat (contact) in your initial post.

Fair enough, Snaqwells. My wife is an attorney, and I have been trained to be vague.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

LOL! Not even close.

What does this mean?

10-6-1: A player shall not.....push an opponent by extending arm(s).............

That's exactly what happened here. This is not even close to anything under player technical.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

+1 I'm with you Bishop. 10-6-2: A player shall not contact an opponent with his hand unless such contact is only with the opponent's hand while it is on the ball and is incidental in an attempt to play the ball.

This is often expressed in laymen's terms: Your hand on the ball is part of the ball. As far as I'm concerned, in this case the ball is part of the hand.

So if a defender reaches over the plane and touches the ball in the thrower's hand during a throw-in, according to that logic it has to be a personal foul?

Is there a rule that says "A player shall not contact an opponent with his FACE unless such such contact by his FACE is only with his opponent's hand while it is on the ball and is incidental in an attempt to play the ball." I can't remember seeing any rule like that. But hey, I'm only a layman. Us laymen can't figger out what a rule saying what a defender can legally do to an opponent holding the ball relates to what an opponent holding the ball can legally do to a defender. You are aware I hope that the red-highlighted "your" above refers to the offensive player's hand on the ball, not the defender's hand...or the defender's face on the ball.

Got it, JAR.

And thanks for playing.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

So if a defender reaches over the plane and touches the ball in the thrower's hand during a throw-in, according to that logic it has to be a personal foul?

Have you got a rule that says "A player shall not contact an opponent with his FACE unless such such contact by his FACE is only with his opponent's hand while it is on the ball and is incidental in an attempt to play the ball." I can't remember seeing any rule like that.

Got it, JAR.

And thanks for playing.

Nobody is talking about touching the ball, during a throw-in, or any other time. Nobody is talking about touching anybody in the face.

The ball rolls loose in the lane. A1 picks it up right in front of the rim. B1 bodies up, hands straight up, trying to prevent a shot attempt. As A1 comes up from the floor with the ball in both hands, he places the ball against B1's chest, gives him a subtle push, just enough to cause B1 to take a step back, then goes up and dunks.

The fact that he pushed using the ball in both hands, rather than extending only one hand and pushing with it, does not change the play. Conceivably, if the official is behind A1, it might be impossible to tell the difference.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Nobody is talking about touching the ball, during a throw-in, or any other time. Nobody is talking about touching anybody in the face.

The ball rolls loose in the lane. A1 picks it up right in front of the rim. B1 bodies up, hands straight up, trying to prevent a shot attempt. As A1 comes up from the floor with the ball in both hands, he places the ball against B1's chest, gives him a subtle push, just enough to cause B1 to take a step back, then goes up and dunks.

The fact that he pushed using the ball in both hands, rather than extending only one hand and pushing with it, does not change the play. Conceivably, if the official is behind A1, it might be impossible to tell the difference.

And it goes right back to.....

Can you cite a rule that states you can have a personal foul without having any illegal contact with an opponent when the ball is live a la 4-19-1? Can you cite a rule or interp that states that contact with the ball is the same as contact with the body? And we already have a rule that states that contact with a thrown ball is a technical foul. Can you cite a rule or interp that states that rule doesn't apply to a ball being held by a player?

Still waiting for rules instead of opinions......

If A1 pushes off with the ball and the only contact is with the ball and you feel an unfair advantage was gained, by rule you have an unsporting non-contact foul by B1 as per rule 4-19-5(b). At no time did A1 make any physical contact with any of his body parts on B1.

Edited to say: JAR, go back and read my edited post #36 above and answer those questions re: hand part of the ball.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Nobody is talking about touching anybody in the face.

I'm talking about the ball touching somebody in the face. But I don't really care where the ball touches the defender. The fact is that it's the ball touching the defender that we're discussing, not the player holding the ball touching the defender with any part of his body. That never happened. Again, the fact is that the only contact on the defender is with the ball.

Clear on that now?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Can you cite a rule or interp that states that contact with the ball is the same as contact with the body?

Can you cite one which says it isn't?

If A1 pushes off with the ball and the only contact is with the ball and you feel an unfair advantage was gained, by rule you have an unsporting non-contact foul by B1 as per rule 4-19-5(b).

An unsporting foul is a noncontact technical foul which consists of unfair, unethical, dishonorable conduct or any behavior not in accordance with the spirit of fair play.

Clearly, the play at hand involves none of these.

At no time did A1 make any physical contact with any of his body parts on B1.

No rule specifies the contact must be "with a body part."

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I'm talking about the ball touching somebody in the face. But I don't really care where the ball touches the defender. The fact is that it's the ball touching the defender that we're discussing, not the player holding the ball touching the defender with any part of his body. That never happened. Again, the fact is that the only contact on the defender is with the ball.

Clear on that now?

No, I'm not clear why you brought up the face.

Is there a rule that says "A player shall not contact an opponent with his FACE unless such such contact by his FACE is only with his opponent's hand while it is on the ball and is incidental in an attempt to play the ball."

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

1) Can you cite one which says it isn't?

2) An unsporting foul is a noncontact technical foul which consists of unfair, unethical, dishonorable conduct or any behavior not in accordance with the spirit of fair play.

Clearly, the play at hand involves none of these.

1) Yup and I already have. Case book play 10.3.6SitB and rules 4-19-1 and 4-19-5(b).

2)Pushing a player with the ball to gain an unfair advantage is unfair, unethical, dishonorable and not in accordance with the spirit of fair play. And that's why I'd call it a "T". Clearly the play at hand involves all of those. Well, that and the fact that the rules won't let me call it a personal foul because there was no actual physical contact by the fouling player.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1) Case book play 10.3.6SitB

Holding the ball, giving a subtle push to the torso. Throwing the ball, striking the opponent in the face. Yep, exact same thing. Great comparison.

2)Pushing a player with the ball to gain an unfair advantage is unfair, unethical, dishonorable and not in accordance with the spirit of fair play.

But that exact same push with the bare hand is a common foul.

And that's why I'd call it a "T". Clearly the play at hand involves all of those. Well, that and the fact that the rules won't let me call it a personal foul because there was no actual physical contact by the fouling player.

Actual physical contact is not a term which is mentioned, let alone defined, in anything you have cited.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

No, I'm not clear why you brought up the face.

I brought it up because you brought up physical contact by a defender on a player's hand. I'm still trying to figure out whatinthehell that has got to do with a player holding the ball hitting a defender with the ball without making physical contact at the same time. Maybe you can explain that sometime.

Unless you can cite some rules, JAR, I'm done. I'm tired of repeating myself and citing the same rules. I'll just file this one in JarLand. It can keep the non-existent blarges company.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I brought it up because you brought up physical contact by a defender on a player's hand. I'm still trying to figure out whatinthehell that has got to do with a player holding the ball hitting a defender with the ball without making physical contact at the same time. Maybe you can explain that sometime.

Unless you can cite some rules, JAR, I'm done. I'm tired of repeating myself and citing the same rules. I'll just file this one in JarLand. It can keep the non-existent blarges company.

If we have a double whistle on the above play, you call a T, and I call a PC, must we report both?