uh oh....BLARGE!!!!

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Woody:

Keep your britches on and don't get your panties in a bunch (oops, its Mark that gets his panties in a bunch).

Over the years (forty to be exact), there have been a few (very few, 0.000,000,000,001% of them maybe even less) Casebook (NFHS and NCAA Men's/Women's) and Approved Rulings (NCAA Men's/Women's) which I did not completely agree with BUT the 'blarge' Casebook (NFHS) and Approved Ruling (NCAA Men's) is absolutely and completely wrong. It canNOT ever be defended by rule. Either the defender has obtained (NFHS)/established (NCAA Men's/Women's and FIBA) a LGP or he has not.

Everybody knows how abominable I think AP is. BUT, how the NFHS and NCAA Men's handles a 'blarge' is infinitely more abominable. We, as officials, take ball watchers and officials who poach calls outside their PCAs to the woodshed, and yet you are taking me to the woodshed for pregaming a prevention to a bad situation. It should be noted that if I were evalutating officials a NFHA or NCAA Men's game in which a 'blarge" occurs and they handle it per the Casebook/Approved Ruling I would not downgrade them because they handled correctly by rule, but I would advise them on how to pregame 'barges' out of existence as well as to why ball watching and poaching calls out of one's PCA can create cluster **** like "blarges'.

'Blarges' happen because, 99.999,999,999,999% of the time, the second whistle is by an official who is not officiating his PCA and 99.999,999,999,999% of the time his call is not correct because he is officiating out of his PCA and he does not get a good look at the play.

I am going to get down off of my soapbox now and take a nap before my midnight courier run.

MTD, Sr.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

...Over the years (forty to be exact), there have been a few (very few, 0.000,000,000,001% of them maybe even less) Casebook (NFHS and NCAA Men's/Women's) and Approved Rulings (NCAA Men's/Women's) which I did not completely agree with BUT the 'blarge' Casebook (NFHS) and Approved Ruling (NCAA Men's) is absolutely and completely wrong. It canNOT ever be defended by rule. Either the defender has obtained (NFHS)/established (NCAA Men's/Women's and FIBA) a LGP or he has not.

I've had one blarge in my career and it happened in a college (Men's) game. Dual coverage area between Lead and Trail. A1 begins drive to basket, Trail sees A1 push B1 in the chest, Lead sees B1 tripping A1. Acts happened simultaneously. And initially we both did hold off on preliminaries. Then after eye contact we both thought the other was yielding and we gave opposing signals.

So our play does not fit into your opinion of why the case play is "wrong".

[Rich]

I've had one, too, since 1987. Last year. College men's game. I'm the L. Block/charge on a secondary defender. We always give that to the L. For some reason the trail called it with a finger point the other way and it was such a no brainer block and so clearly my call to make that I didn't even consider that he would call it, let alone so badly.

And I'm not sure that even had I seen my partner call the charge first if I would've ceded that call to him. When a call is SO wrong outside of a PCA, I don't see why the crew and the game should have to live with the call because he was quicker to the table.

Going AP is in the rules because there are officials out there who would refuse to cede to the other official in this situation, but I think we should be allowed to talk and determine if one of us is simply wrong and then report that to the table. AP is the rule, but AP is flat-out stupid.

[APG]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I've had one, too, since 1987. Last year. College men's game. I'm the L. Block/charge on a secondary defender. We always give that to the L. For some reason the trail called it with a finger point the other way and it was such a no brainer block and so clearly my call to make that I didn't even consider that he would call it, let alone so badly.

And I'm not sure that even had I seen my partner call the charge first if I would've ceded that call to him. When a call is SO wrong outside of a PCA, I don't see why the crew and the game should have to live with the call because he was quicker to the table.

Going AP is in the rules because there are officials out there who would refuse to cede to the other official in this situation, but I think we should be allowed to talk and determine if one of us is simply wrong and then report that to the table. AP is the rule, but AP is flat-out stupid.

Don't we go to the POI for double fouls? AP isn't always the POI in this situation.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

Don't we go to the POI for double fouls? AP isn't always the POI in this situation.

Yes, if there's team control, there's no AP. But usually, there's a shot in the air, and if that shot is missed, AP arrow. Make the shot, count the basket and give it to B or if there is no shot, give it back to A.

[APG]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Yes, if there's team contro, there's no AP. But usually, there's a shot in the air, and if that shot is missed, AP arrow. Make the shot, count the basket and give it to B or if there is no shot, give it back to A.

Just wanted to clarify. You're right that usually there's a try in the air which would mandate us to go to the AP in a situation like this.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

Just wanted to clarify. You're right that usually there's a try in the air which would mandate us to go to the AP in a situation like this....

...unless the shot is made, in which case B would get the ball.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

Just wanted to clarify. You're right that usually there's a try in the air which would mandate us to go to the AP in a situation like this.

Well, yeah. POI. Usually AP.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Going AP is in the rules because there are officials out there who would refuse to cede to the other official in this situation, but I think we should be allowed to talk and determine if one of us is simply wrong and then report that to the table. AP is the rule, but AP is flat-out stupid.

I can think of about 4/5 rules off-hand that I think that are completely dumb also, Rich. But that doesn't change the fact they are the rules and I don't get to make up my own to replace 'em. If you do something like that, you're just putting your own azz in a crack. Never call what you can't explain or justify.

Rant over. We now return you to regular programming(at least until MTD shows again with yet another 10,000 word filibuster as to why MTD Knows Best.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I can think of about 4/5 rules off-hand that I think that are completely dumb also, Rich. But that doesn't change the fact they are the rules and I don't get to make up my own to replace 'em. If you do something like that, you're just putting your own azz in a crack. Never call what you can't explain or justify.

Rant over. We now return you to regular programming(at least until MTD shows again with yet another 10,000 word filibuster as to why MTD Knows Best.

Same page as me (as you can see by the post above yours).

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Over the years (forty to be exact), there have been a few (very few, 0.000,000,000,001% of them maybe even less) Casebook (NFHS and NCAA Men's/Women's) and Approved Rulings (NCAA Men's/Women's) which I did not completely agree with BUT the 'blarge' Casebook (NFHS) and Approved Ruling (NCAA Men's) is absolutely and completely wrong. It canNOT ever be defended by rule. Either the defender has obtained (NFHS)/established (NCAA Men's/Women's and FIBA) a LGP or he has not.

Everybody knows how abominable I think AP is. BUT, how the NFHS and NCAA Men's handles a 'blarge' is infinitely more abominable. We, as officials, take ball watchers and officials who poach calls outside their PCAs to the woodshed, and yet you are taking me to the woodshed for pregaming a prevention to a bad situation. It should be noted that if I were evalutating officials a NFHA or NCAA Men's game in which a 'blarge" occurs and they handle it per the Casebook/Approved Ruling I would not downgrade them because they handled correctly by rule, but I would advise them on how to pregame 'barges' out of existence as well as to why ball watching and poaching calls out of one's PCA can create cluster **** like "blarges'.

'Blarges' happen because, 99.999,999,999,999% of the time, the second whistle is by an official who is not officiating his PCA and 99.999,999,999,999% of the time his call is not correct because he is officiating out of his PCA and he does not get a good look at the play.

Do you really think that just because you don't like or agree with a very plainly written RULE, we should all forget about that RULE and do what you think you should be done? Do you have any idea just how ridiculous that concept is?

Mark, I could give a damn less what YOU disagree with. Your OPINION is absolutely meaningless. And it's not only meaningless, it's absurd because it goes directly against plainly written rules. I saw several blarges last year in D1 games and I've already seen a couple of them this year in D1 games also. And between D1 big dawgs too. Yes,blarges shouldn't happen. But unfortunately they do happen sometimes. And they can happen to all of us too. And when they do, we have RULES on how we're supposed to handle them. And if we don't handle them by those RULES but make up our very own rules like you advocate, then we'll all be joining you doing girls eighth grade games in rural Ohio.

You stated above that a RULE can't be defended by rule. Do you know how truly idiotic in nature that statement really is?

Un-freaking-believable!!!!

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Do you really think that just because you don't like or agree with a very plainly written RULE, we should all forget about that RULE and do what you think you should be done? Do you have any idea just how ridiculous that concept is?

Mark, I could give a damn less what YOUdisagree with. Your OPINION is absolutely meaningless. And it's not only meaningless, it's absurd because it goes directly against plainly written rules. I saw several blarges last year in D1 games and I've already seen a couple of them this year in D1 games also. And between D1 big dawgs too. Yes,blarges shouldn't happen. But unfortunately they do happen sometimes. And they can happen to all of us too. And when they do, we have RULES on how we're supposed to handle them. And if we don't handle them by those RULES but make up our very own rules like you advocate, then we'll all be joining you doing girls eighth grade games in rural Ohio.

Un-freaking-believable!!!!

When we had our blarge, I ended up going to the coaches and gave them a brief explanation. It was easier to say, "There's a rule for this and my hands are tied," than it would've been to pick one foul and disregard the other.

I may pull out an unapproved mechanic from time to time, but I don't mess with the rules.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

When we had our blarge, I ended up going to the coaches and gave them a brief explanation. It was easier to say, "There's a rule for this and my hands are tied," than it would've been to pick one foul and disregard the other.

I may pull out an unapproved mechanic from time to time, but I don't mess with the rules.

And I made the response above to your other post before I read this one. I had no doubt you were just too knowledgable to ever put yourself in the position of blatantly ignoring a written rule. You might get away with it, but if you don't.......

EDIT..geeze we're both agreeing with each other at the exact same time.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And I made the response above to your other post before I read this one. I had no doubt you were just too knowledgable to ever put yourself in the position of blatantly ignoring a written rule. You might get away with it, but if you don't.......

EDIT..geeze we're both agreeing with each other at the exact same time.

I have decided that since I hate the rule that allows coaches to yell for a timeout, I'm going to ignore it from now on!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

I have decided that since I hate the rule that allows coaches to yell for a timeout, I'm going to ignore it from now on!

That one has probably caused more headaches for officials than probably any other rule. I'd love to see it disappear. But I ain't MTD Sr so I guess I just gotta live with it.