uh oh....BLARGE!!!!

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

LOL, I see no shame in getting to the division line when there's a quick steal and the player gets fouled in transition at the FT line.

Snaqs:

You know you are getting old when, in a two-man game, MTD, Jr, from the old L makes it to the other free throw line extended, at the new T, at the same time you are passing that same free throw line extended as the old T becoming the new L. And he is still keeping all ten players between himself and me. LOL

MTD, Sr.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Second, I know that the NFHS and NCAA Men's Casebooks tell us that your situation is a DPF. BUT, by rule, a Blarge; that is a crock of horse manure. Oops! I mean that is impossible!

The NCAA Women's CCA Mechnics Manual covers a blarge correctly. Only one official can have the call and it should (99.999,999,999,999% of the time) be the official who has primary coverage, and in your case: YOU!.

I would have come in strong and taken the call. If your partner wanted to parley (I think I spelled it correctly) with you about the fouls (whenever there is a DF, it is always good mechanics to meet at the center circle to discuss the situation before reporting it) I would have told him that I had the call and we were going to have only one foul. If the A-HC wants to know why only A1 only called for a foul (charge) and that B1 was not charged with block making the foul a DPF, tell him that your whistle was first.

Very very rarely (only 0.000,000,000,001% of the time; yes, the two percentage figures add up to 100%) will I disagree with a Casebook Play, AND this is one of them and I will impose my will with my partner(s) on this one.

Blarge calls occur most of the time (99.999,999,999,999% of the time) when one official starts to ball watch and is watching out of his primary. A good pregame conference will eleiminate blarges from one's game; that means, we do not have blarges in my games.

The last time I had a blarge situation was about six years ago in a MichiganHSAA boys' H.S. varsity game. Team V was pressing in the first half and I was the T (Table Side--TS) at the time of the play. V1, while in his team's backcourt, was dribbling the ball up the court along the TS Sideline. H1 obtained a LGP against V1 just in Team V's backcour where the Division Line and the Sideline intersect, taking the Sideline away from V1. V1 ran H1 over and I came up strong with a stop clock for foul signal followed by a PCF signal.

The L, (who was also the R for the game and had stated numerous times that pregame conferences aren't needed in his games) who should have been on the Endline watching off the ball, was stadning on the TS-Sideline where Team H's freethrow line intersected the Sideline watching the ball (you do not want me to further evaluate is abilities as a L in a three-man officiating crew) and at the same moment that I sounded my whistle for V1's charge he came in with his own whistle for a block by H1, .

He came to me to tell me that we had DPF (the dreaded blarge in this case), and I told him that we did not. He said that we did, and I told him that he had no business even looking at the ball and that he should have had his tuchus down on the Endline officiating off the ball. , by him, LOL.

I told him that I had 100% on ball coverage in this play and that there was only going to be one whistle and that it was going to be mine. And that is what we went with. The halftime get together was very quiet. But the rest of the game is another story, because even his long time partner (I was a league assigned substitute) turned on him by the end of the game. It was not pretty in the dressing room after the game.

Un-freaking-believable!!!!

Not only do you deny the existence of a very plainly written case book play on blarges, you also advocate using a procedure that goes directly against the mandate of a very plainly written rule i.e. NFHS rule 2-6.

If you ever pulled that crap in my association, you'd never officiate another game here. And if you ever tried to pull that crap on any of our experienced officials during a game, your azz would be outside in a snowbank in one helluva big hurry. You might get away with intimidating a rookie with that nonsense but that just doesn't work with experienced officials who know the rules.

We want our officials to follow the rules, not make up their own.

You've come up with some real dandies lately, Mark, but you've outdone even yourself this time. Un-freaking-believable!!!!

[Welpe]

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Un-freaking-believable!!!!

Not only do you deny the existence of a very plainly written case book play on blarges, you also advocate using a procedure that goes directly against the mandate of a very plainly written rule i.e. NFHS rule 2-6.

If you ever pulled that crap in my association, you'd never officiate another game here. And if you ever tried to pull that crap on any of our experienced officials during a game, your azz would be outside in a snowbank in one helluva big hurry. You might get away with intimidating a rookie with that nonsense but that just doesn't work with experienced officials who know the rules.

We want our officials to follow the rules, not make up their own.

You've come up with some real dandies lately, Mark, but you've outdone even yourself this time. No wonder they don't give you varsity games anymore.

Un-freaking-believable!!!!

Not exactly how I would have worded it, but +1.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Not exactly how I would have worded it, but +1.

Yeah, you're probably right, Snaqs. The response was kinda over the top but it's frustrating to me when someone advises readers here to ignore plainly written rules. You know better and I know better....and the other knowledgable people here know better...but....the rookies just learning might take something that far-fetched as being gospel.

On the plus side though, it does get the point across.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Woody:

Keep your britches on and don't get your panties in a bunch (oops, its Mark that gets his panties in a bunch).

Over the years (forty to be exact), there have been a few (very few, 0.000,000,000,001% of them maybe even less) Casebook (NFHS and NCAA Men's/Women's) and Approved Rulings (NCAA Men's/Women's) which I did not completely agree with BUT the 'blarge' Casebook (NFHS) and Approved Ruling (NCAA Men's) is absolutely and completely wrong. It canNOT ever be defended by rule. Either the defender has obtained (NFHS)/established (NCAA Men's/Women's and FIBA) a LGP or he has not.

Everybody knows how abominable I think AP is. BUT, how the NFHS and NCAA Men's handles a 'blarge' is infinitely more abominable. We, as officials, take ball watchers and officials who poach calls outside their PCAs to the woodshed, and yet you are taking me to the woodshed for pregaming a prevention to a bad situation. It should be noted that if I were evalutating officials a NFHA or NCAA Men's game in which a 'blarge" occurs and they handle it per the Casebook/Approved Ruling I would not downgrade them because they handled correctly by rule, but I would advise them on how to pregame 'barges' out of existence as well as to why ball watching and poaching calls out of one's PCA can create cluster **** like "blarges'.

'Blarges' happen because, 99.999,999,999,999% of the time, the second whistle is by an official who is not officiating his PCA and 99.999,999,999,999% of the time his call is not correct because he is officiating out of his PCA and he does not get a good look at the play.

I am going to get down off of my soapbox now and take a nap before my midnight courier run.

MTD, Sr.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

You know better and I know better, and the other knowledgeable people here know better...

... and Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. knows better. His post surprised me. Could he still have some holiday nog left in the house?

P.S. What happened to the kinder, gentler, Jurassic Referee? And picking on an old man like Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.? Shame on you. Weren't you taught to respect your elders?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

...Over the years (forty to be exact), there have been a few (very few, 0.000,000,000,001% of them maybe even less) Casebook (NFHS and NCAA Men's/Women's) and Approved Rulings (NCAA Men's/Women's) which I did not completely agree with BUT the 'blarge' Casebook (NFHS) and Approved Ruling (NCAA Men's) is absolutely and completely wrong. It canNOT ever be defended by rule. Either the defender has obtained (NFHS)/established (NCAA Men's/Women's and FIBA) a LGP or he has not.

I've had one blarge in my career and it happened in a college (Men's) game. Dual coverage area between Lead and Trail. A1 begins drive to basket, Trail sees A1 push B1 in the chest, Lead sees B1 tripping A1. Acts happened simultaneously. And initially we both did hold off on preliminaries. Then after eye contact we both thought the other was yielding and we gave opposing signals.

So our play does not fit into your opinion of why the case play is "wrong".

[Rich]

I've had one, too, since 1987. Last year. College men's game. I'm the L. Block/charge on a secondary defender. We always give that to the L. For some reason the trail called it with a finger point the other way and it was such a no brainer block and so clearly my call to make that I didn't even consider that he would call it, let alone so badly.

And I'm not sure that even had I seen my partner call the charge first if I would've ceded that call to him. When a call is SO wrong outside of a PCA, I don't see why the crew and the game should have to live with the call because he was quicker to the table.

Going AP is in the rules because there are officials out there who would refuse to cede to the other official in this situation, but I think we should be allowed to talk and determine if one of us is simply wrong and then report that to the table. AP is the rule, but AP is flat-out stupid.

[APG]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I've had one, too, since 1987. Last year. College men's game. I'm the L. Block/charge on a secondary defender. We always give that to the L. For some reason the trail called it with a finger point the other way and it was such a no brainer block and so clearly my call to make that I didn't even consider that he would call it, let alone so badly.

And I'm not sure that even had I seen my partner call the charge first if I would've ceded that call to him. When a call is SO wrong outside of a PCA, I don't see why the crew and the game should have to live with the call because he was quicker to the table.

Going AP is in the rules because there are officials out there who would refuse to cede to the other official in this situation, but I think we should be allowed to talk and determine if one of us is simply wrong and then report that to the table. AP is the rule, but AP is flat-out stupid.

Don't we go to the POI for double fouls? AP isn't always the POI in this situation.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by vbzebra

Moral of the story, please discuss THIS specific situation in pregame so it doesn't happen to YOU!!!!

Moral of this story, slow down, raise your fist, and make eye contact with your partner before giving a preliminary signal.

[DesMoines]

Originally Posted by bktballref

moral of this story, slow down, raise your fist, and make eye contact with your partner before giving a preliminary signal.

+1

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

You've come up with some real dandies lately, Mark, but you've outdone even yourself this time. Un-freaking-believable!!!!

Yep, and when proven wrong, just refuses to return to the thread!

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

Don't we go to the POI for double fouls? AP isn't always the POI in this situation.

Yes, if there's team control, there's no AP. But usually, there's a shot in the air, and if that shot is missed, AP arrow. Make the shot, count the basket and give it to B or if there is no shot, give it back to A.

[APG]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Yes, if there's team contro, there's no AP. But usually, there's a shot in the air, and if that shot is missed, AP arrow. Make the shot, count the basket and give it to B or if there is no shot, give it back to A.

Just wanted to clarify. You're right that usually there's a try in the air which would mandate us to go to the AP in a situation like this.