Possesion Arrow Error

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I'm familiar with the rule. I'm also familiar with the passage about intent and purpose of the rules. I also wouldn't call the T if the player dunked immediately after being called for traveling, perhaps thinking the whistle indicated a foul.

The intent of the rule committee is obviously that a throwin is not correctable once it's complete, yet some are wanting to use the technical foul rule to, essentially, override that intent.

[rockyroad]

Cobra - I would love to read your thoughts on my post #105.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

The intent of the rule committee is obviously that a throwin is not correctable once it's complete, yet some are wanting to use the technical foul rule to, essentially, override that intent.

I personally do not favor the technical call. As someone said earlier, (you, I think) I would have a hard time calling a technical for this if I handed the player the ball. But if the call was made, I agree with the theory that the act of deception causes the ball to be dead at that point.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I personally do not favor the technical call. As someone said earlier, (you, I think) I would have a hard time calling a technical for this if I handed the player the ball. But if the call was made, I agree with the theory that the act of deception causes the ball to be dead at that point.

I agree in theory, but there is a practical time limit to how late you can make this call. At best, you could sell it if you hit the whistle with the ball in the air. Any time after that, though, and you are really stretching the rule. I'd say, again, about the same time it's too late to go back and get that travel is when it's too late to go back and get the T.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I agree in theory, but there is a practical time limit to how late you can make this call. At best, you could sell it if you hit the whistle with the ball in the air. Any time after that, though, and you are really stretching the rule. I'd say, again, about the same time it's too late to go back and get that travel is when it's too late to go back and get the T.

I agree with that, too. But if it's soon enough to make the T call, it's soon enough to cancel the shot.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

The intent of the rule committee is obviously that a throwin is not correctable once it's complete, yet some are wanting to use the technical foul rule to, essentially, override that intent.

Not at all. The point was that a foul (ANY FOUL) that occurs before a shot kills the shot....the rest of the situation is irrelevant. The timing of the whistle doesn't matter....only the timing of the foul. The case play about the throwin is irrelevant...different situation.

Let's change the scenario....wrong team has the ball for a throw in. They throw it into A3. A1 calls you an MF just before A3 shoots the ball. You don't sound the whistle until after the release. Does the shot count or not? THAT is exactly the same as the situation we're talking about.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Not at all. The point was that a foul (ANY FOUL) that occurs before a shot kills the shot....the rest of the situation is irrelevant. The timing of the whistle doesn't matter....only the timing of the foul. The case play about the throwin is irrelevant...different situation.

Let's change the scenario....wrong team has the ball for a throw in. They throw it into A3. A1 calls you an MF just before A3 shoots the ball. You don't sound the whistle until after the release. Does the shot count or not? THAT is exactly the same as the situation we're talking about.

I've already offered this situation to show the same thing. You're right, if you think quickly enough to call the T here, it needs to be called quickly. I'd no more reach back and grab this T than I would reach back and grab a travel two passes before the shot attempt.

IMO, waiting until after the basket is made is too late, practically speaking, to call the T for an act that occurred during the throw-in.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Not at all. The point was that a foul (ANY FOUL) that occurs before a shot kills the shot....the rest of the situation is irrelevant. The timing of the whistle doesn't matter....only the timing of the foul. The case play about the throwin is irrelevant...different situation.

Let's change the scenario....wrong team has the ball for a throw in. They throw it into A3. A1 calls you an MF just before A3 shoots the ball. You don't sound the whistle until after the release. Does the shot count or not? THAT is exactly the same as the situation we're talking about.

No it is NOT the same...in the situation we are talking about - way back on page 1, post #6 - the officials did not know they had screwed up until it was too late - by RULE - to correct it.

By your logic - team B throws it in and scores. Team A then scores. Team B scores again. Team A scores again and then calls timeout - at which point you realize it should have been A's ball for the throw-in, B did it purposely, so you wipe out all the points and assess the T because none of those were live balls since the "foul" kept them all from becoming live.

Absolutely ridiculous.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

No it is NOT the same...in the situation we are talking about - way back on page 1, post #6 - the officials did not know they had screwed up until it was too late - by RULE - to correct it.

By your logic - team B throws it in and scores. Team A then scores. Team B scores again. Team A scores again and then calls timeout - at which point you realize it should have been A's ball for the throw-in, B did it purposely, so you wipe out all the points and assess the T because none of those were live balls since the "foul" kept them all from becoming live.

Absolutely ridiculous.

Right, there has to be a practical limit on just how late this call can be made.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Right, there has to be a practical limit on just how late this call can be made.

And that practical limit is stated quite clearly - once the throw-in ends, it is too late.

You want to call the T because you think the Coach had them do it on purpose - fine. I am all for that...but the 3 points stays on the board because that is a result of our screw-up and cannot be fixed once the throw-in ends.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

And that practical limit is stated quite clearly - once the throw-in ends, it is too late.

You want to call the T because you think the Coach had them do it on purpose - fine. I am all for that...but the 3 points stays on the board because that is a result of our screw-up and cannot be fixed once the throw-in ends.

Wasn't there a ruling once on 6 players in the game that might be illustrative? Indicating that all points scored must count, in spite of the fact that the T was "committed" prior to the try.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Wasn't there a ruling once on 6 players in the game that might be illustrative? Indicating that all points scored must count, in spite of the fact that the T was "committed" prior to the try.

No, that T is specifically applied when discovered, not when it occurs....because you have no idea WHEN the 6th player entered.

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Wasn't there a ruling once on 6 players in the game that might be illustrative? Indicating that all points scored must count, in spite of the fact that the T was "committed" prior to the try.

When does this foul occur? Just having 6 players does not make the ball dead.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Cobra and jar - let's change the play ever so slightly. Instead of B2 hitting a 3-pointer, they go up and slam the ball home, with authority. If the ball is indeed dead, would you charge B2 with a second T for purposely dunking a dead ball?

Of course it isn't a foul. Do you call technical fouls on a dunk ending at the end of the period when the horn goes off .1 seconds before the dunk? What is there is a foul by the offense which causes the ball to become dead .1 seconds before there is a dunk? What if the player commits basket interference while grabbing the ball and dunks it on the way down?

Originally Posted by youngump

Suppose A2 commits a technical foul before A3 releases the shot. Suppose for example he vulgarly swears in his non-English mother tongue at the official. Now suppose that 4 minutes later the ball becomes dead and the official asks another official what the term means and that official explains it. Are you suggesting the ball was dead for that shot and for all of the subsequent 4 minutes?

I'm guessing that the answer is no because you don't believe you can go back and get the technical? If the answer is yes, please explain what the limits would be.
If the answer is no, then would it be fair to characterize your difference simply as to how far back you can go to penalize the action. Or is there something more fundamental you are arguing?

That is way to long to go back and call a foul. In the play being discussed it is a couple of seconds later not 4 minutes. But if the official did call the foul it would be correct under the rules as there is no set amount of time that the foul must be called in.

Originally Posted by rockyroad

And that practical limit is stated quite clearly - once the throw-in ends, it is too late.

That is the time limit to correct the throw in. There is no limit under the rules for calling fouls.

Originally Posted by rockyroad

So - again - let me see if I have this right (according to your interp)...

Team A is late coming out of timeout...Officials mistakenly allow team B to throw ball in...team B hits a 3 pointer...team A goes down and hits their own 3 pointer...team B comes back and turns ball over...team A goes down and scores 2...team B calls a timeout...Coach A then says "Hey wait a minute! That throw in should have been ours!"

You are sure - right down to your toes - that B did it on purpose...so you will now cancel A's 5 points, B's 3 points, call a T on the B Coach, administer the two shots and give A the ball at mid-court opposite for a throw in????

Do you put time back on the clock?

If the official calls the foul then yes, the ball was dead when the foul occurred. The clock would have to be rest, if the officials know the time, as it should have never started.

Originally Posted by just another ref

Some of us thought we were. And at least one of us misread it, which changes everything as far as I'm concerned.

Ok, not a big deal. Jurassic Referee said things which go against the rules in 5 separate posts about the play where the foul was called several seconds after it occurred. But now he just ignores the fact that that play even exists. If someone says "it's not too late to call the technical foul" he will say "there is no technical foul in post #6."

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

And that practical limit is stated quite clearly - once the throw-in ends, it is too late.

You want to call the T because you think the Coach had them do it on purpose - fine. I am all for that...but the 3 points stays on the board because that is a result of our screw-up and cannot be fixed once the throw-in ends.

The only thing it is too late to correct is the throw in...that is it. The case play is addressing nothing more than that. The case play doesn't preclude penalizing unsporting fouls. It doesn't consider possible unsportsmanlike behavior. The subsequent shot has NOTHING to do with the throwin error. That shot is a completely independent action and is not tied to other actions that precede it.

The primary objection by Jurrassic and others is that the shot counts because the ball is not dead until you actually make the call. Anyone who asserts that is simply ignoring several rules, cases, and even the rules fundamentals.

IF you choose to call a foul (personal or T) for whatever reason, the ball is dead at the point of the infraction that draws the foul (normal exceptions noted). The rules are absolutely clear on that point...and there are several case plays that back that up.

Calling a foul on an action that occurred before the shot is not correcting the throwin, it is calling a foul.