Possesion Arrow Error

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Not at all. The point was that a foul (ANY FOUL) that occurs before a shot kills the shot....the rest of the situation is irrelevant. The timing of the whistle doesn't matter....only the timing of the foul. The case play about the throwin is irrelevant...different situation.

Let's change the scenario....wrong team has the ball for a throw in. They throw it into A3. A1 calls you an MF just before A3 shoots the ball. You don't sound the whistle until after the release. Does the shot count or not? THAT is exactly the same as the situation we're talking about.

No it is NOT the same...in the situation we are talking about - way back on page 1, post #6 - the officials did not know they had screwed up until it was too late - by RULE - to correct it.

By your logic - team B throws it in and scores. Team A then scores. Team B scores again. Team A scores again and then calls timeout - at which point you realize it should have been A's ball for the throw-in, B did it purposely, so you wipe out all the points and assess the T because none of those were live balls since the "foul" kept them all from becoming live.

Absolutely ridiculous.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

No it is NOT the same...in the situation we are talking about - way back on page 1, post #6 - the officials did not know they had screwed up until it was too late - by RULE - to correct it.

By your logic - team B throws it in and scores. Team A then scores. Team B scores again. Team A scores again and then calls timeout - at which point you realize it should have been A's ball for the throw-in, B did it purposely, so you wipe out all the points and assess the T because none of those were live balls since the "foul" kept them all from becoming live.

Absolutely ridiculous.

Right, there has to be a practical limit on just how late this call can be made.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Right, there has to be a practical limit on just how late this call can be made.

And that practical limit is stated quite clearly - once the throw-in ends, it is too late.

You want to call the T because you think the Coach had them do it on purpose - fine. I am all for that...but the 3 points stays on the board because that is a result of our screw-up and cannot be fixed once the throw-in ends.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

And that practical limit is stated quite clearly - once the throw-in ends, it is too late.

You want to call the T because you think the Coach had them do it on purpose - fine. I am all for that...but the 3 points stays on the board because that is a result of our screw-up and cannot be fixed once the throw-in ends.

Wasn't there a ruling once on 6 players in the game that might be illustrative? Indicating that all points scored must count, in spite of the fact that the T was "committed" prior to the try.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Wasn't there a ruling once on 6 players in the game that might be illustrative? Indicating that all points scored must count, in spite of the fact that the T was "committed" prior to the try.

No, that T is specifically applied when discovered, not when it occurs....because you have no idea WHEN the 6th player entered.

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Wasn't there a ruling once on 6 players in the game that might be illustrative? Indicating that all points scored must count, in spite of the fact that the T was "committed" prior to the try.

When does this foul occur? Just having 6 players does not make the ball dead.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Cobra and jar - let's change the play ever so slightly. Instead of B2 hitting a 3-pointer, they go up and slam the ball home, with authority. If the ball is indeed dead, would you charge B2 with a second T for purposely dunking a dead ball?

Of course it isn't a foul. Do you call technical fouls on a dunk ending at the end of the period when the horn goes off .1 seconds before the dunk? What is there is a foul by the offense which causes the ball to become dead .1 seconds before there is a dunk? What if the player commits basket interference while grabbing the ball and dunks it on the way down?

Originally Posted by youngump

Suppose A2 commits a technical foul before A3 releases the shot. Suppose for example he vulgarly swears in his non-English mother tongue at the official. Now suppose that 4 minutes later the ball becomes dead and the official asks another official what the term means and that official explains it. Are you suggesting the ball was dead for that shot and for all of the subsequent 4 minutes?

I'm guessing that the answer is no because you don't believe you can go back and get the technical? If the answer is yes, please explain what the limits would be.
If the answer is no, then would it be fair to characterize your difference simply as to how far back you can go to penalize the action. Or is there something more fundamental you are arguing?

That is way to long to go back and call a foul. In the play being discussed it is a couple of seconds later not 4 minutes. But if the official did call the foul it would be correct under the rules as there is no set amount of time that the foul must be called in.

Originally Posted by rockyroad

And that practical limit is stated quite clearly - once the throw-in ends, it is too late.

That is the time limit to correct the throw in. There is no limit under the rules for calling fouls.

Originally Posted by rockyroad

So - again - let me see if I have this right (according to your interp)...

Team A is late coming out of timeout...Officials mistakenly allow team B to throw ball in...team B hits a 3 pointer...team A goes down and hits their own 3 pointer...team B comes back and turns ball over...team A goes down and scores 2...team B calls a timeout...Coach A then says "Hey wait a minute! That throw in should have been ours!"

You are sure - right down to your toes - that B did it on purpose...so you will now cancel A's 5 points, B's 3 points, call a T on the B Coach, administer the two shots and give A the ball at mid-court opposite for a throw in????

Do you put time back on the clock?

If the official calls the foul then yes, the ball was dead when the foul occurred. The clock would have to be rest, if the officials know the time, as it should have never started.

Originally Posted by just another ref

Some of us thought we were. And at least one of us misread it, which changes everything as far as I'm concerned.

Ok, not a big deal. Jurassic Referee said things which go against the rules in 5 separate posts about the play where the foul was called several seconds after it occurred. But now he just ignores the fact that that play even exists. If someone says "it's not too late to call the technical foul" he will say "there is no technical foul in post #6."

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Cobra

If the official calls the foul then yes, the ball was dead when the foul occurred. The clock would have to be reset, if the officials know the time, as it should have never started.

The officials can correct, with definite knowledge, an obvious error by the timer. In this play, the official gave the ball to the wrong team, the throw-in was complete. I assume this means the signal was given and the clock was properly started. If the official does decide at this point to call a T for devious behavior, a call which gets harder and harder for me to swallow, there is no obvious error by the timer to correct.

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by just another ref

The officials can correct, with definite knowledge, an obvious error by the timer.

The clock can also be corrected when it malfunctions or is not started or stopped properly.

Originally Posted by just another ref

I assume this means the signal was given and the clock was properly started. If the official does decide at this point to call a T for devious behavior, a call which gets harder and harder for me to swallow, there is no obvious error by the timer to correct.

The timer did his job and started the clock when signaled to do so, but just because the official signals the clock to start does not mean that it started properly. Like if 3 free throws are awarded and the official signals for the clock to start after the second free throw....timer did not error as he was signaled to start the clock, yet the time may be corrected as the clock was not started properly. It is the same idea on the play being discussed.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Cobra

That is way to long to go back and call a foul.

...as there is no set amount of time that the foul must be called in.



There is no limit under the rules for calling fouls.

Do you even realize the fact that you are contradicting yourself???

That is way too long - BUT there is no time limit.

Good grief.

[TimTaylor]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

.......
Over and over, I've said I'm talking about a timing race between the whistle for T vs. the shot....which, for anyone that actually read the posts, should have been obvious. I used terms like "moment", "one or two seconds", etc. Every example play I presented to demonstrate my point was a bang-bang-bang play where the infraction under question, the shot, and the whistle were one right after the other.

Once you've moved on and hit the point where coach H (in the original #6) got the T, it is definitely too late to go back and do anything...I've NEVER said otherwise.

No argument here Cam. As I've before, if it's reasonably prompt - all occurs within a second or two - we can sell it pretty effectively, and I think that most of us agree that anything much beyond that is going to be too late.

My concerns with this specific situation are:

1. The officials really screwed the pooch on this one. It's their job to know which team gets the ball after the TO, and this is doubly important in a close game down the stretch. If they'd paid attention and done their job correctly, the situation never would have occurred.

2. Is a T justified in this situation? Certainly the comment by coach V is suspicious, but IMHO it is not enough in and of itself to justify a T. What was the context? Maybe he just realized at the last second his team was mistakenly given the ball for throw-in. You'd think that if it was a deliberate act, he'd be smart enough to not overtly attract attention to it....playing dumb would be a much smarter approach. I think it's one of those HTBT situations.......

3. Ambiguities and outright contradictions within the NFHS rules and interpretations. There's plenty of parallels within the rules that place a time limit on when a penalty can be assessed - for example, an illegal sub becomes a player once the ball becomes live and you can no longer penalize. Does anything similar apply here? How does the official wrongly giving the ball to a thrower from the wrong team affect it? Does it fall into the "when occurred" or "when discovered" category?

A key issue in this discussion is "did the ball become live?" Rule 6-1-2-b says it becomes live on a throw-in, when it is at the disposal of the thrower. If we proceed to throw-in administration, 7-6-2 says "The throw-in starts when the ball is at the disposal of a player of the team entitled to the throw-in." At face value, you'd expect that this means the ball isn't live until both the above conditions are satisfied, but we have a case play that directly contradicts that, saying that we can't correct giving the ball to the wrong team for throw-in once the throw in ends. Yes, the specific case involves an AP situation, but it doesn't specifically limit itself to that situation as some case interps clearly do, implying that it would be valid for any wrong team throw-in administration error by the official - this is further supported by the fact giving the ball to the wrong team for throw-in is not included in the list of correctable errors specified by rule. How can a throw in end if according to 7-6-2 it never started? In the case of a made basket it's clear the ball doesn't become live until it's at the disposal of the team entitled to the throw-in, but from the interp it appears that on a throw-in administered by an official that's not necessarily the case, and at least some of the time the ball becomes live when given to the thrower, whether they're from the correct team or not. Like I said, ambiguous and contradictory.....a little consistency would be nice......

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

And that practical limit is stated quite clearly - once the throw-in ends, it is too late.

You want to call the T because you think the Coach had them do it on purpose - fine. I am all for that...but the 3 points stays on the board because that is a result of our screw-up and cannot be fixed once the throw-in ends.

The only thing it is too late to correct is the throw in...that is it. The case play is addressing nothing more than that. The case play doesn't preclude penalizing unsporting fouls. It doesn't consider possible unsportsmanlike behavior. The subsequent shot has NOTHING to do with the throwin error. That shot is a completely independent action and is not tied to other actions that precede it.

The primary objection by Jurrassic and others is that the shot counts because the ball is not dead until you actually make the call. Anyone who asserts that is simply ignoring several rules, cases, and even the rules fundamentals.

IF you choose to call a foul (personal or T) for whatever reason, the ball is dead at the point of the infraction that draws the foul (normal exceptions noted). The rules are absolutely clear on that point...and there are several case plays that back that up.

Calling a foul on an action that occurred before the shot is not correcting the throwin, it is calling a foul.